I'm considering the unthinkable

[Iron Annie]

I'm looking at the cost/benefit analysis of owning my 84' 300D Turbo as a work vehicle. It has 228K on the engine which isn't neccessarily anything to worry about but there are other factors which are inevitable. The transmission works great except it needs a vacuum adjustment to make the shifting crisper. However it could go out tomorrow or in 60,000 miles. When it does, it will be difficult to find the $1500-$1800 to have it rebuilt. The rear right axle still needs replacing but it doesn't affect my daily drive but it needs to be done. I need to save up the $370-$400 for the axle and $$$ for labor. Unfortunately I'm not a mechanic nor as mechanically-inclined as most of you are. Most of the car's minor--yet annoying ailments most of you can mend yourselves with your 123's. Diesel is also the most-expensive fuel in Los Angeles by a long shot. Sometimes I think I'm better off financially with a rice-burner. The MBZ parts are expensive for many of the parts. I love driving this car but if anything big breaks, I won't have the money to have it repaired. Any thoughts? It's in great shape inside and out with very little rust. The body is straight and the paint is still in good shape. I made a few improvements such as new headlight doors. Any offers? Check out the pictures I posted in the photo gallery and send me a PM or an e-mail with any offers or questions. It's in great shape or else I wouldn't have bought it in the first place!

[VLayton]

First one? Not had that long? Early ownership jitters? I suggest you try to stay the course. I will tell my story if prompted, about my experiences and deductions on using a W123 diesel fo "commercial" purposes, but be careful, I CAN go on and on... :p

[Alex]

The cost/benefit analysis is simple: To fix your '84 300D will cost a couple of grand. To buy and maintain any other car will cost more. End of analysis.

[Grey Ghost]

for Chrissakes Alex, take off the kid gloves

p.s. you came to the wrong place to get an opinion on this issue, Annie

p.p.s. you can replace the car, but you can't replace the CHARACTER

[Maxbumpo]

If you think that parts for a 20 year old MB are expensive, wait until you try to buy something for a 5-10 year old Japanese car! I recently replaced the turn signal flasher unit in my Wife's Infiniti: $45!!! There are a few emissions control pieces of gadgetry that have died, and I cannot justify the $hundreds to buy the parts to do the work myself just to make the check engine light go off. If it were an American car, OE parts from the dealer would not even be available, I'll bet, and I'd be trolling the junkyards or the aisle of Pep Boys, trying to cobble together a fix.

Any car is going to be expensive to maintain; the 123 is legendary for durability and a well-cared for specimen can be very inexpensive compared to other marques.

If you've got the time and the inclination, get yourself to an MBCA tech. event to gain some skills, buy some tools, and start turning wrenches yourself. I'm sure that if you apply yourself, you will find that changing your own oil and adjusting your own valves is not too hard and rather rewarding, and before long you'll be considering replacement of that axle with your own two hands.

[benzing]

Benz all the way I couldn't agree more, you could buy an older v-dub where you could get parts cheap from any junk yard??? just a thought but keep the Benz

[Iron Annie]

Well I'll think about it. I was thinking that I bet the tranny from the wrecked 300D at my friend's yard might work if my current one dies. I think it only had like 140K on it. The problem is that the car was badly broad-sided and who knows if it's any good. I'm sure it's ok but who knows for sure. Personally the few times I've ever needed repairs on my 96' Accord, it has been pretty cheap. New CV joints were done for like $150 for everything. I know if I decided to get a rebuilt transmission, new axle (s), and fix a few of the annoyances (vacuum leaks) then the Benz would be set for another 100k. It's too bad you have to adjust the valves every 15k. What a pain that is. Glow plugs are a nuisance too compared to spark plugs. However I just drove nearly 90 miles city/highway on a quarter tank. Not bad. Not bad at all.

[pch2021]

patrick: let me give you a bit of insight. one yeasr ago, i bought a 1969 220D as a work car.

one year later, at 355,000, this car runs better than the day i bought it.

sure, the clutch could die, the engine COULD break, etc, but i take my maintenance to heart and i am religious about it. do the same for your car, and then, dont worry.

if it runs correctly now, take care of it, and it will run correctly forever.

[Alex]

Patrick,

Regarding your concern about glow plugs, they're not like spark plugs. Glow plugs last a very long time. During the 224k miles in my '81 300TD they've been changed twice and the second time was unnecessary because the problem turned out to be elsewhere.

[Iron Annie]

Just curious about another thing: How long do other components last such as water pumps, clutch fans, alternators, starters, oil & fuel pumps, power steering and brake master cylinder? The reason I'm also mentioning the water pump or clutch fan is that I'm beginning to hear a whiny, rattling noise from the very front of the engine. I heard it on the freeway last night and I heard it when I was in the driveway. It's not jitters but an actual "new" sound.

[Maxbumpo]

On my wagon, original water pump was changed at ~290k miles. I just put in a rebuilt starter, and the one that came out was also rebuilt, so at least two starters required to got 327k miles.

[D.L. SWINFORD]

Annie;
You're going though what most of the used 123 owners expience.
The "WHAT IFs"
Consider that alternatives, Used, New or keeping what you have.
Used, the same problems you may have now.
New, unless you pay cash would be the monthly payments for as many months as financed for.
Keeping what you have and repairing one time cost as it occurs.
Yes fuel is expensive but so are spark plugs and emition components.
Your 123s out class most anything on the road today; CHARACTER as the Club I founded and G.G. has kept growing.
For most of us there is only one way.
Don't be misled into thinking you can be trained to do some of the repairs yourself without an tools and an instructor there beside you.
I have three daughters and I speak with some experience.
Only you know what you must do.
Enjoy a ride that turns some peoples head not just another set of wheels rolling down the pike.
Happy Trails Beep Beep from The Spiderman on The Gulf Coast, Don
A Moderator, Founder, President, Chairman of The Board 123 CHARACTER Club

[Maxbumpo]

Also, don't forget the level of crash protection that an MB provides. Even though you don't have air bags and probably don't have ABS (although it was an option), few cars can match the 'tank' safety of an MB.

[pch2021]

Patrick:

I buy NEW ATE master cylinders for $48. They last about 150,000 miles.

Alternators RARELY FAIL. The voltage regulator brushes usually deteriorate- the new brushes are cheap and easy to install.

use high quality plugs and you will be fine.

vavle adjustments ARE NOT apain. considering you have a durable timing chain that rarely fails or needs replacement, plus a bulletproof cast iron head, you really need to reconsider. you could have the timing belt blues.

water pumps are $28 new [HEPU- always has been good to me].

fuel injection pumps and oil pumps do not wear out if you keep fuel filters, oil and oil filters clean!

Have you check your alternator bracket? or belts? fan clutches rarely fail as well. My original on my 220D [pre'72 220D's came with fan clutches- not solid fans!] works well.

Once in a while [every 150k or so] a $15 dollar motor mount is needed!.

your safety lies in learning to fix your own car.

[gatekey]

Iron Annie's question is quite interesting. Let me restate it ... If you needed an only car, were on a tight budget and saw a W123 diesel with 228k miles and known history in a used car lot full of similarly priced cars, would you buy it?

The comment in a previous submittal about a VW really brings one aspect home. A good VW is not cheap to buy (about $6000) and can probably be maintained very cheaply but the safety issues on freeways is a major consideration. The W123 probably costs more to maintain but the safety is orders of magnitude greater. A clear tradeoff.

Before I bought my 240D, I stopped 5 people with W123's and asked if they were for sale. 2 of the 5 were owned by single women with children and would never consider selling them. One was owned by a senior citizen who felt that this was the least expensive car he had ever owned since he paid $2200 for it and had put less than $1000 into it in 5 years. 2 were owned by college students for the same reason. They needed cheap, reliable transportation and "just couldn't afford to buy or maintain other more modern cars."

Finally a friend who fit the "tight budget" criterion and was in the market for an inexpensive car for his newly acquired wife. I suggested a W123. Well he bought a well-cared-for Saturn SL2 because it was $2500 and "safe enough" and "cheap" to run. So there you have a sort of middle of the road solution.

I realize this is a lot of hand waving but the experiences of the 5 W123 owners suggest there is basis for a bias toward the W123 as a very pragmatic car to own/keep. I will admit, I've only had mine about 6 months and have put about $3500 into it (timing chain, transmission, axles, A/C conversion, glowplugs and relay, etc) to bring it up to snuff but I expect to amortize it out over the next several years of hopefully reliable service.

Greg

[Iron Annie]

Well I found the source of my mystery noise. I observed that the lower belt on the front of the engine was holding on by a string! The remants were literally the strings which were deep inside the groove of the pulley! Woah! Close call! I also spotted a coolant hose that was leaking.

Well I am pretty resistant to peer pressure but I think you all speak some truth. It's true that whenever I DO repair these various components, it would most-likely been thousands and thousands of miles before I need to worry about it again. I drove my Honda around today and was bored s**tless. No character. None at all. Just another drone in a car's world. I'm sure I will match that $3500 investment someone mentioned on their car. I have eight things which will need to be done to get it to proper condition. I have two questions:

1) I understand everything about the valve adjustment except one detail. If I don't use the power steering pulley to move the engine (yes, clockwise), where is this other spot I can rotate the engine?

2) How much effort to replace that lower belt?

[pch2021]

YOU NEED A 27MM SOCKET WRENCH TO TURN IT AT THE CRANKSAHFT PULLEY, WHICH IS THE PROPER WAY TO DO IT!

the lower belt- AC, i think you mean to say, requres a 19mm wrench and a 10mm wrench. Loosen the retaining bolts for the compressor, and then loosen the 10mm adjusting nut. Slip the bbelt on by partially hooking int and then cranking the engine 1 time. The belt should fit on when there are 10 threads showing on the adjustment stud.

[Maxbumpo]

OK, here's the summary of arguements PRO:

1) If a DIY'er, the 123 series and MB's parts prices/availability lend themselves to saving some serious money on maintenance and repair.

2) Safety (vs. used Japanese)

3) CHARACTER (way beyond anything made in America or Japan)!!!

4) It's paid for, and if well cared for the value has probably bottomed and may increase.

5) Durability, especially given the harsh driving conditions Iron Annie experiences.

And here's the CON:

1) It's a 20+ year old car, and it WILL need repairs.

2) Diesel fuel on par with or more expensive than premium gas.


Have I got it right?

[Iron Annie]

That just about sums it up, yep. My Honda has 120,000 on it and has been the most amazing car (up to this point) I have ever owned in terms of reliability. However just like the Benz, as anything ages it will need more service. If I drive the Honda more, then that equals more miles which equals more service in time.

[Maxbumpo]

Can you keep both cars??

If so, then becoming a DIY'er is more attractive, as you won't be under pressure to perform all repairs immediately and correctly. Use the MB as the dailey driver, and keep the Honda as a back-up.

[Iron Annie]

Yep, that's just what I'm going to do. Keep em' both! :D
For once in my life, I'm renting a house that is too big! It has room for fifteen Mercedes 300's if I wanted to. So one is parked and covered and the other is in the driveway safe and sound. That's actually a sad aspect of owning a 300D. No one wants to steal them. I have a stock-looking unimpressive stereo that doesn't even have a CD player (actually I use an IPod plugged into a tape adaptor!). I committed myself this morning and dropped her off at a trusted German repair shop and they are working on the belt, the leaky coolant hose, the vacuum leak, possibly adjusting the transmission, the valves, the glow plugs, and the bushings in the shifter. That will leave just the axle, the climate control issue, and possibly the transmission. Otherwise I'll be set!

Thanks for the effective cheerleading

(I can hear the cheerleading chant now)

"123"
"Diesel fumes!"
"Diesel fumes!"
"Go-Go-Go!"
"300-D is the finest they make"
"500,000 miles and the bugger won't break!"
;)

[ulrich]

Glad you did the right thing, Iron.

[Alex]

Patrick,

You left out one element from the Con section: It's going to cost some $ to get a replacement car. The present car is already paid for.

[Iron Annie]

Actually I am using the Benz in order to keep my Accord as "My new car". One of my biggest goals this year is to kill off all but my student loan debt and start putting money aside for a down-payment on a house of my own. Financing a new car isn't something I'm terribly interested in (although I do love that new car smell!).

Update: My vacuum pump is leaking and needs a rebuild. Checking out the parts neccessary for a rebuild, it looks pretty simple to do. Also my front brake pads are toast.

[moviesharq]

Hi Annie,

I recently acquired a 300D as well (less than a year). Everyone thought I was crazy because I am a "girl" and it's a diesel.

Love this car! Best advice I can give. Do your research. These cars were designed for the cheap parts to fail first. If you get right on it, you shouldn't have to replace many of the $$ parts. Best advice I got from this group? Don't throw parts at it, find out what the problem is. You'd be surprised at how little it takes sometimes to get these babies humming again.

Second piece of advice...find a GOOD mechanic. Took me months to find a mechanic who would touch it let alone have mastered it. I learned alot in the meantime. Turned my own wrenches. Used books, web posting and pics as resouces. There are some very good DIY websites! Mechanic impressed because I've already diagnosed problem.

My car odometer stopped at 229K and gets better gas mileage than my 2004 Hyundai. (Meet cute guys at the diesel pumps too!). You'll know you're in for the long haul when you ask and receive a hydraulic floor jack, jack stands and new tools for Christmas. ha ha ha

Good luck!

Melissa
Twin Cities

[Alex]

Patrick,

You ought to either sign your posts or change your handle.

The above post is not the first one that thinks you're female.

Or is that the idea?

[VLayton]

I agree with Alex but don't think Melissa necessarily thinks that.

Patrick- Go into your user profile and type your name in the signature box- then you don't ever have to deal with it.

Better yet, send your MBCA dues in and get the spiffy "MBCA Member" title to go with it! ;)



(You know you wannaaaa....)

[Iron Annie]

D'OH :eek:

[Iron Annie]

I got Annie back from the shop with lots of good news!
The transmission was adjusted and now it shifts very crisply. My mechanic says it's in great condition. Secondly I can now turn the car off anytime AND as many times as I want to without the highly annoying run-on. Thirdly, when I turn the ignition switch on I see a yellow light indicating that the glow plugs are all working and that the relay works fine! Fourthly, the car runs even smoother than before with the valves adjusted. I guess the exhaust valves in particular were maladjusted the worst. I also had the shifter bushings replaced and it took the vibration with it.
They did all this wonderful work yet--they forgot to change the a/c belt which is the #1 reason I took it there in the first place. He was very embarrassed and said he's put it on free of charge this monday while I wait. He's a good guy and he's been working on 123's for 25 years. Now I need to have the axle replaced and the climate control "bug" sorted out. It think the climate controls are kaput because no center vents work and it always blows the air out the defrost vents. Sorry if I'm repeating what you already know...it happens as you get old I hear! :rolleyes:

[D.L. SWINFORD]

What?;
You log on as Iron Annie, then sign off as Partrick.
Is you is or is you ain't a him or her?
After that is resolved didn't it turn out as us oldsters said it would?
I've known others and I'll probabley be there myself.
Hang-on and be a proud owner of a w123 car Of CHARACTER.
Happy Trails Beep Beep from The Spiderman on The Gulf Coast, Don
A Moderator, Founder, President, Chairman of The Board 123 CHARACTER Club

[Maxbumpo]

I like this thread! Drama, comedy, and a happy ending! How much are the tickets for this show??

[D.L. SWINFORD]

maxbumpo;
Since you enjoy the show so much, two things you must do if you haven't already done them.
First,
join The MBCA
Second and the most important,
join The 123 Character Club.
This is an invitatiion from The Founder, President and Chairman of The Board, Don
G.G. will take care of registering you as a new member.
Happy Trails Beep Beep from The Spiderman on The Gulf Coast, Don
A Moderator, etc. etc. etc.

[Maxbumpo]

All right, OK, Thank You Very Much, I'll do it. :eek:

- next month, when I can relax the fiscal austerity measures, :mad: I'll put up the bux for the MB membership.

I've also got to christen my wagon to join the 123 Club. Funny, it was very easy for me to find the inspiriration to name my sailboat 'Sanctification'.

Perhaps 'Lorelei', in keeping with a nautical theme (for those unaware, I am a Lieutenant Command in the U.S. Navy Reserve).

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lorelei.html

The minute I saw my wagon, I knew that I had to have her!

[Iron Annie]

'Lorelei' eh? Know where "Iron Annie" really came from?

It was the German nickname for their venerable (and often vunerable) Junkers 52 (JU-52) transport plane in WWII. Yes, she is named after a Nazi plane. I love old airplanes no matter who flew them!

[pch2021]

hello Patrick. We ar epleased to hear you are also a 123 addict!

[Al Cooper]

Iron annie, I'm the quote "Senior Statesman" or some such in the 123 club so I have some advice; good or bad as you may judge. I would fix what ever is REALLY wrong with your 123 as a major malfunction occurs ie; fix the axle when it really gets to be a problem, not before. When I bought my 123 10 years ago at 96-97,000 my son in law said the clicking in the rear was the right axle cv joint. 35,000 miles later i don't hear it!! & the axle is the same one. :)

Our 2 daughters 95 jeep, 94 tercel, & 88 Honda coupe all required major work between 100k & 150K miles & those are pretty reliable cars. I'm convinced that any car over 100K especially gas engine ones will require major work at any given point in time!! :eek:

A 123 will require the least amount of major work of any older car I know of if you change the oil at 3,000 miles, adjust the valves every 15,000 & lube the many hinges, throttle linkage etc regularily & keep the rust at bay by not driving in the northern snow or if you do by washing it thoroughly up under the chassis & wheel wells weekly. :o

I don't do much of my own work but I do change the oil on schedule, lube what I can, wash the car & wax it, & get it to my mech when it needs a valve adjustment or other work. All of this has cost me about $ 2,500-3,000 in 10 years. WHERE ELSE CAN YOU FIND a 20+ year old car to run that cheap & look like a million bucks :)

Our 99 Civic daily driver at 66,000+ will never make 20 years no matter what I do to keep it running. And it looks like an over grown green jellybean to boot!! ;)

Keep the 123!! :D

Al in red sox nation w/Manfried the 240D in semi hibernation & Marlene the 560SL ready for salt free roads :cool:

[mbzjag8090]

http://mbca.cartama.net/showthread.php?t=4519&page=2&pp=15&highlight=Hatch+Sons

See this link- page two. I have posted it as a means to describe to people what these cars can cost if maintained to the standards they deserve. Since this summer, the car has also needed:

ACC System Blower Motor: ~$550 Parts and Labor
Main Vaccum Pump: ~$800 Parts and Labor

Regardless of what people say, I believe these cars are a labor of love, not a wise financial investment. The cheapest way to approach owning a vehicle is to buy a five year old Honda Accord and drive it for about ten years. Owning a twenty-five year old Mercedes that costs over $500 every other oil change (it seems) is not a wise car to buy for financial stability. Only my $.02 based on nearly nine years of ownership.

Many also argue an old diesel Mercedes is cheaper than say, a 1989-1991 S-Class Mercedes. I disagree. My 1990 420 SEL after 20,000 miles in less than a year has not cost a penny more than what I knew it would cost me.

But remember, the CHARACTER is unbeatable just as is driving a well tuned S-Class diesel down the freeway at 80 mph and watching the miles turn over to 333,333. (I'm almost there!)

Good luck deciding and realize that if you can do your own labor it will be much cheaper than the figures I have posted. (Maybe 1/3rd of the cost.) :)

[Iron Annie]

Yeah, I recall reading that post and that's a lot of work. The good news is that my mechanic described my car as being in great shape for it's age. I don't anticipate any major problems from this car for a while. My biggest concern was the tranny but my mechanic adjusted it and it shifts well now. It's a smart car for my purposes just as long as I keep it in good shape. That I do with all my vehicles!

[VLayton]

Regardless of what people say, I believe these cars are a labor of love, not a wise financial investment.

Very true, and a sound thinking formula for better relization of maintainable enthusiasm.

However I think your examples may be a little off average, and when thinking of the averages of endurance versus part costs and replacement frequency, over the course of 6 figure mileages and many years of ownership, based on mere formulaic-theory, a W123 diesel is surely at the very top of the field.

[Vince77]

I have been out of touch for far too long... but I'm back and I have to say its good to hear you all carrying on and convincing folks to join the club. I will say this though, While I was out in the sand on the other side of the planet, there were three types of cars tearing around. There were of course, the Land Rovers running in the dirt. There were the mini import type pickups, and then there were several Diesel Mercs running around as local government vehicles. Now with gas running around $0.70 a gallon over there, what keeps a car on the road is the fact that it keeps running. Makes me glad I found my 300D, even though it has its flaws... :rolleyes:

[Iron Annie]

$10.50 to fill 15 gallons? GASP! :eek:

[VLayton]

$10.50 to fill 15 gallons? GASP! :eek:


Yes, but I'd guess consistant quality is less. If fuel would hit the dollar per gallon I think it should be again, (35% profit) I'd be very happy about it.

[Grey Ghost]

Patrick, welcome aboard!

I never noticed that you were a Visitor because your posts have always been polite and non-confrontational.

More recent Visitors seem to think this is a barroom. They lack tact and have been encouraged to pack their bags if they really can't see the value of MBCA membership.