Kickstarting this forum...

[John E]

Not enough activity here, so let's get it goin...

I have a 1985 300TD, Canadian spec that was converted by Lovecraft Biofuels here in Los Angeles.

We've had the car for over 6 months, very few problems so far, have had to change the Lovecraft installed fuel filter twice so far. The tank seems pretty gunked up so I'm running some cleaner additives thru it pretty regularly.

Haven't put a drop of petroleum fuel in the car since we bought it used.

The body is a bit rough and I need to replace the rear bumper and do some rust removal/restoration on the rocker panels.

We've had the rear suspension repaired, all new tires installed and I put a set of Bilstein front shocks on it a few months ago. Going to go out today and change the motor oil and replace some of the old fuel lines.

My plan is to somewhat slowly replace all of the known wear items like hoses and belts and fuel lines. I say slowly cause the car is mainly driven around town and for a short commute, if we were doing long distance driving with it or a longer commute, I'd get more stuff repaired more quickly. As it is, I do what work I'm comfortable doing and farm out the rest.

So who else is running a veggie oil converted Mercedes? I know you're out there, I've seen quite a few Lovecraft stickers on the windows of 1980's diesels here in Los Angeles.

John E.

[Sysco Kid]

:D Check my other posts

Happy New Year
Michael

[Don350SDL]

One side of me thinks that WVO is a good idea.

The other side tells me that my time is worth too much (for both collecting and "brewqing" the stuff), the WVO is, if I had to buy it, much more costly than petroleum (not just the cost of the oil, mind you, but the costs involved in growing, harvesting and transporting it as well), and my commute isn't enough to justify it (9 miles per day, total).

Although, having my exhaust smell like onion rings does have its appeal....

I'm also somewhat hesitant to add another tank to the car, with valves and switches and who knows what.

Now, if I could run a car on methanol, THAT would be something interesting to me. I understand you can get a hydrogen reformer to extract it from the methanol, then use a fuel cell to create electricity. If my diesel engine ever died, I'd consider a big honkin' electric motor in there instead. Sure the reformer/fuel cell idea is wicked expensive - north of $15k - but maybe some more conventional batteries, and a lawnmower engine on a generator to top them off for distance. (Hm, I just realized I'm describing a hybrid.)

Don

[Highway Star]

I bought my 1985 300D (Classic White, 204,000 miles) in June and I've been using both Petro- and Bio-diesel since I discovered there was a co-op called Prariefire Bio-fuels right here in Madison. The only "modifications" I've had to do is replace the two fuel filters after the Bio-diesel cleaned out the tank fuel lines. I used to hate diesels (mostly 'cause of the smell), but now I love them. These engines have so much potenial to be Ecofrendly and still make some major horsepower.

[Highway Star]

One side of me thinks that WVO is a good idea.

The other side tells me that my time is worth too much (for both collecting and "brewqing" the stuff), the WVO is, if I had to buy it, much more costly than petroleum (not just the cost of the oil, mind you, but the costs involved in growing, harvesting and transporting it as well), and my commute isn't enough to justify it (9 miles per day, total).

You're thinking of Bio-diesel, you don't have to brew WVO, you just filter the food particles out of it. Just build a stand with two tanks, one for unfiltered oil to drain into the filter, then in to the clean oil barrel. Pour dirty veg oil into the top tank then go to bed, wake up to cheap fuel that you can sell to other people who have WVO converted cars but don't have their own filter set up.



I'm also somewhat hesitant to add another tank to the car, with valves and switches and who knows what.
Don

You don't have to add any extra tanks or valves now there are hybrid type kits that use the cars original fuel tank and a heater on the fuel filter. I know a woman at the co-op where I buy my B100, she has a Benz that uses this hybrid system, she showed it to me and I almost thought it came that way from the Mercedes factory. If you want to know the name of the company that makes it and where to get this type of WVO conversion, e-mail the folks at http://www.prairiefirebiofuels.org/ .

[kipper]

HI, Im going to be converting my 87 300sdl over to wvo, my last car I converted was a 98 vw beetle, and it ran great on waste oil. The other tank in the trunk of the beetle made the trunk useless , so I should not have that problem with the sdl. Im unsure if Im going to buy a kit or just get the parts I need from the local parts store. I would like tto use the Elsbit set up I ve read alot of good things about that.

[dolebludger]

Hi all:

I guess I am the new moderator around here, so here I go! The new Mercedes diesels are designated to run on a blend of biodiesel, as I understand it (although a writer of an article in "the Star" a few months ago was runnning 100% in one of these with no reported problems). Question. With a new Mercedes diesel, what is it? 5%, 10% 20% or what, according to the owners manual? And, whatever the percentage is, do you have that fuel in your area?

You see, what hacks me off badly is that my '04 C 320 gasoline engine car is flex fuel and will run on E 85 (85% ethanol). But this fuel is not presently readily available here, so I can't use it even though I want to do so. Here in Oklahoma, there are ethanol refineries going up all over the place, and I even bought a piece of one of them. Also, there are biodiesel refineries in the works.

I guess I know about the conversion needed to run the older MB diesels on 100% biodiesel, and the upside and downside, but what I really want to know is the availability of blended biodiesel/diesel fuel in your area that will run your cars without modification.

[John E]

to run biodiesel in an old or a newer diesel engine. Biodiesel is simply diesel fuel made from non-petroleum ingredients. Typically from either filtered waste oil or new vegetable oil.

It's the cars running on straight vegetable oil that typically need to be modified.

Straight vegetable oil is too thick to flow and burn properly without being preheated. Waste vegetable oil also needs to be filtered and dewatered before using it.

The early to mid 1980's Mercedes diesels have proven to be very good candidates for vegetable oil conversion as they use a very robust injector pump and in-direct injection. There are some folks who claim that all of us who are running single tank conversions on our older Mercedes are simply ruining the engines.

I take the position that my car is a tool, to be used for transportation. It's not some esoteric thing with it's own intrinsic value to be coddled and treated like a museum piece.

Keep in mind that the original diesel engine was designed to be run on vegetable oil.

If I can get an additional 50,000 or 100,000 miles using vegetable oil on a 22 year old car that was destined for the junkheap when I bought it, I will have gotten more than what it's worth out of it. The added benefits of not having to buy petro diesel and the idea that using vegetable oil results in a neutral amount of carbon dioxide being emitted is a bonus.

John E.

[uberwgn]

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4051/115804440000011603772ql6.jpg

[dolebludger]

uber:

I am not up on my model numbers. Does this mean that any form of biodiesel is a no-no for the W211 Eclass diesels?

[uberwgn]

Richard, they are referring to CDI models sold in the USA.

[John E]

where these "metal shavings" that the bulletin refers to would be coming from?

There aren't any metal chips in biodiesel, at least not on purpose.

There are biodiesel suppliers that meet or exceed the ASTM standards for motor fuel, I can't imagine why fuel that is cleaner than pump petro diesel wouldn't work in a modern diesel engine.

Strange...

John E.

[shadetree]

where these "metal shavings" that the bulletin refers to would be coming from?

There aren't any metal chips in biodiesel, at least not on purpose.

There are biodiesel suppliers that meet or exceed the ASTM standards for motor fuel, I can't imagine why fuel that is cleaner than pump petro diesel wouldn't work in a modern diesel engine.

Strange...

John E.

The past 2 or 3, 2006 issues of the Star Magazine addresses fuel issues for
CDI and BLUETEC engines. In short what I get out of it is that the
CDI engines can accomodate up to B5 biodiesel. Not so for BLUETEC
primarily due to damage that can happen to the exhaust system
converters etc.
Regards,
Chas Mattix

[H-townbenzoboy]

Question. With a new Mercedes diesel, what is it? 5%, 10% 20% or what, according to the owners manual? And, whatever the percentage is, do you have that fuel in your area?


By new, I assume you mean the 2007 Bluetec models. I haven't seen anything saying BioDiesel is ok to use in them. But, here's a letter from MBUSA dated June 8, 2006 that says B5 is ok to use in their CDI models.
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/OEM%20Statements/20060608_Mercedes_Benz_bio_position.pdf

[lkchris]

It sure seems incongruous that Mercedes is being associated with things "alternative."

MB, of course is for all practical purposes the inventor of the automobile and the internal combustion engine and seller of the first diesel-powered automobile and remains probably the highest-tech auto company today.

To associate fine engineering with many-times amatuer attempts to brew "alternate" fuels in the name of "sticking it" to oil companies is pretty hilarious.

Folks grounded in reality devise production and distribution systems and perform engineering tests, but it's just amazing what some folks will inflict on fine machinery in the name of politics and false economy.

CDI and Bluetec owners still live in the comfortable world of warranty coverage, but I suspect their euphoria will come crashing down when it's time to pay the hefty price of replacing the highest-technology engine parts anywhere due to self-inflicted damage.

Bet the fuel cost savings won't cover it.

[Sysco Kid]

I've been reading about it lately for better MPG :rolleyes:

[Don350SDL]

where these "metal shavings" that the bulletin refers to would be coming from?
I am guessing they would come from a damaged high-pressure pump. Presumably damaged by the fuel.

Or, it could be a routine check, a 'just in case while you're in there' type check. After all, it only takes a glance.

Don

[H-townbenzoboy]

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4051/115804440000011603772ql6.jpg

That's interesting. I read somewhere that some fuel suppliers are adding 1-2% of biodiesel to their ULSD to combat lubricity issues with IPs on vehicles lubricated by fuel. With such small percentages of biodiesel added, they don't have to put stickers on the pump stating the fuel has biodiesel. The Bluetecs are not permitted to use any biodiesel. So theoretically, if there was fuel system damage from it and it had not been disclosed by the supplier that biodiesel was in the fuel, that would be quite a mess.

It sure seems incongruous that Mercedes is being associated with things "alternative."

Mercedes-Benz has done testing with "alternative" fuels for a while now. They powered a fleet of taxis with nothing but biodiesel in 1992, and in 2003 and 2006 they tested a synthetic diesel fuel called SunDiesel.
See:http://www.worldcarfans.com/print.cfm/ID/5061213.001/lang/eng

[dolebludger]

Ikchris:

If you read my original post on another thread of this forum, you will see how the Germans really pioneeded the use of alternative fuels for their war machinery in WWII -- but in the form of ethanol blends, and not biodiesel. Indeed, although this isn't something that Mercedes advertises for obvious reasons, Germany's famous WWII fighter plane was fueled with something very close to E85 ethanol blend -- and its engine was built by Mercedes Benz.

But I understand your concern over biodiesel, whose refineries may too often consist of two guys working in a garage. Until the industry grows and we can be asured of real, state of the art biodiesel refineries, concerns over purity and quality will remain. Ethanol refineries, on the other hand, are true state of the art industrial facilities (I've seen some of them), so concerns over qurity and quality of ethanol should not be great.

[Garlynn]

John-

You were looking for people who are already running vegetable oil kits.

We have not yet installed a veggie oil kit; however, we're running about 60% biodiesel in the tank right now. We did a road trip from San Francisco to Portland and back, and filled the tank variously with truck stop diesel, B20, B60, and B99 at various places along the way. The end average is somewhere around B60. Eleanor seems to like biodiesel a lot -- she smells less, ans seems if anything to run a little bit smoother after she gets warmed up. I'm not sure if she starts rougher or not -- she does seem to shake and sputter a lot when she starts, but that might just be normal for diesels on cold-starts (~42F) after over a day of no activity? (This is my first personal diesel vehicle, purchased on December 16th and taken for road trip beginning on the 20th.) After about 20 seconds of idling and a touch of the gas pedal, she evens out OK and runs great after that. The cloud of smoke coming out of the back on startup has changed from pure black to bluish-gray now that we're running B60 instead of full diesel.

We are thinking of installing the single-tank Elsbett system in her (or a modified version thereof -- we might not want to pay tariff & shipping for everything from Germany if we can get some stuff here. Injectors, yes, German. Heater, filters, hoses, etc. -- local), probably sometime pretty soon. Here's our reasoning:

1) There is no public biodiesel pump in the central Bay Area. Santa Rosa has the closest public pump. All other pumps are membership only/commercial cardlock.
2) Biodiesel, while similar to buying organic groceries in that you definitely get what you pay for, is about $3.29 a gallon or so.
3) Waste vegetable oil should be free and plentiful in the city with the most restaurants per capita in the world (SF). Cost would be the filtration system plus the Elsbett system. We don't actually expect to save money over any length of time, it's just a matter of increased capital costs vs. decreased operating costs.
4) We already roast our own green coffee beans, brew our own beer, make our own popcorn, knit our own hats, and generally adopt a DIY attitude towards those things that are within our abilities. This would seem to fit right in.
5) The diesel engine for a 1987 300TD would seem to be built for this application, with the Elsbett modifications. Why not?
6) I'm thinking about also adding a hydrogen boost system. More on that in a separate thread.

cheers,
~Garlynn

[John E]

that you do more research before you commit to any sort of kit or a DIY for that particular car.

The 1987 300TD uses a different engine than did it's predecessors.

Contact some of the folks who do waste oil conversions like Lovecraft, Frybrid, Plantdrive, etc. and ask them about converting an 87.

John E.

[Garlynn]

Thanks for the concern about the OM603 engine. I also don't wish to damage Eleanor -- she is a beauty.

These folks have converted an '87:

http://www.usm.maine.edu/~pauln/VegetableOilCar/

Looks like Lovecraft did up one as well (and then sold it -- this is from the internet archive):

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&appid=firefox-resurrect&query=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lovecraftbiofuels.com%2Find ex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3 D42%26Itemid%3D49&results=1&u=www.lovecraftbiofuels.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26i d%3D42%26Itemid%3D49&d=EzpT7UVuN_aX&icp=1&.intl=us

Elbett definitely sells a kit for the '87 engine:

http://www.elsbett.com/us/online-shop.html specific link to page for printer:
http://server2.gs-shop.de/200/cgi-bin/shop.dll?AnbieterID=7372&rndid=87962990&bnr=44900360&hauptseite=detaillpt.htm&PKEY=8EB0

...as does Lovecraft:

http://www.lovecraftbiofuels.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=1&category_id=1&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26&vmcchk=1

Given that, it seems like there's products fitted specifically for this particular engine, and it has been done before.... however, Elsbett, for one, specifically recommends against using WVO, and will not warranty their product if it is used (probably because you just don't know what's going to be in it).

Thoughts?

[lbarnica]

I have a 1983 300D Turbo with 232,000 miles on it. I have used SVO for about 5K plus miles. I purchased a Greasel kit and installed it myself. The main reason I choose that kit is I live 150 miles from Springfield, Mo. I did add a inline fuel heater just ahead of the lift pump for quicker change over time when the temp is colder(15 deg. F) I have had zero problems with the kit. I love it and my wife does too as she drives it about 75 miles round trip to work daily. I buy about 2.5 gal of diesel a week. The only thing I would change is the diesel tank to a larger size. It is only 6 gal. and if we forget to switch over you can(and will) run out of diesel....I forgot to purge the svo one night and it was 17 deg. the next morning!! I ran the glow process 3 times in succession and tried to start the engine it fired but died. After 3 more tries it started up and ran fine. I wish I would have done this 10 years ago!!

[Maxbumpo]

Garlynn,

It sounds as if Eleanor needs to have her glow plugs checked, I'll bet that at least one or two are bad.

[Maxbumpo]

After a brief read of this: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

it would appear that if one is serious about using VO or WVO as a diesel fuel substitute but wants to lower the risk of engine damage, the following things would be needed:

1) A full Elsbett kit, with modified injectors and glowplug system
2) Fuel pre-heater which can heat the VO to 150 deg. C

Then, when gathering oil, one should test for acid level by titration, and test for water content, and test for iodine content. If the oil has levels above acceptable criteria, it should be rejected for use as fuel but can be considered for transestrification into biodiesel.

If the oil passes these criteria, then one must properly filter it before use.

And after all of the above, there are still no rigorous studies that show that engine life will be comparable to using petro-diesel.

I would think that the economics make this unfeasable.
1) Cost of the kit from Elsbett or whomever, and installation cost
2) Cost for testing materials to test the oil
3) Time involved in testing, gathering, and filtering the oil. Let's say my time is worth about $50 per hour (I wish my employer paid me that much!). I can stop at a diesel station on my way to/from work, and for about 5 minutes of time and about $30 I can fill my tank; I'll put a value of $50 on that to make the math simple. In order for the economics to work, I would need to find, test, gather, filter and then put into my car the VO or WVO in an hour or less to break even (and we haven't even begun to address recouping the cost of the conversion).

Can anyone out there with experience tell me that they can find, test, gather and filter 15 gallons of WVO in less than an hour?

[John E]

I can't fault your logic. All I know is that I've spent far less money on fuel for my modified 300TD than I would have using standard diesel fuel.

It's not just about saving money, I'd rather spend some of my time doing what I'm doing with my car than spending my cash at the diesel pump.

To each their own.

Some folks might say that owning more cars than one can drive is a waste of money...

John E.

[Maxbumpo]

John,

Can you estimate the time to go from 'starting process of gathering VO' to 'I've got a full tank (~15 gallons of oil)?

[sparker]

Meade, I can't resist jumping in here. There is no question that the process of gathering and filtering WVO is time consuming. But, as John wrote, it's not just about saving money. Running my car on WVO is an extraordinarily satisfying experience. I am doing my part to reduce our dependance on foreign oil and all the politics that entails, my car runs cleaner than on petro-diesel, I'm recycling a waste product that my restaurants would otherwise have to pay to get rid of, my fuel is almost free, the exhaust smells good (sort of), the mechanics of the conversion and potential for improvement are fascinating, and being the tinkerer I am, I enjoy the entire process. - Steven

[Sysco Kid]

Grease Lightning has been running on waste canola oil for 16k now. She had a Elsbett kit installed by Alexander from Elsbett while he made his rounds accross
the country. I live in Boston. I have a relationship with a restaurant that does most of the filtering for me. Instead of dumping the hot oil in the 55 gallon drum out back at night, they let it gravity settle overnight inside the restaurant.In the morning they pour the top 75% back in the plastic "cubbies" they origionally came in. I pick it up and let it settle for another 4 weeks and then sock filter to 1 micron.
I can filter 4 gallons in 90 seconds @ 60 degrees and faster in the summer . I'm
running a 50/49/1 blend (1% being anti-gel) in the winter and 100% wvo in the
warmer months :)

Regards

Michael

[Maxbumpo]

Michael,

Are you testing for acidity, iodine, and water content?

[Sysco Kid]

Meade

Very good question. The customer uses the fryer 95% for fresh French fries.
They don't fry any scallops,calamari or shrimp which would increase iodine levels.
Also, using 100% Canola OIL :D and not Canola "fry" :mad: oil they avoid getting TBHQ
(anti-foaming agant)to react with stainless steel which raises acid levels .
Gravity works wonderfully :) regarding the water issue as well as having close to a so called "closed system " avoiding the dreaded rain in the drum senario. I did do
testing for iodine and acid for the first few month but every week I got the same great results. I'll post a picture of Grease Lightning shortly.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend

Michael
1984 300tdt
106k origional miles

[Maxbumpo]

Michael,

Thanks for that report. 16k miles on WVO is impressive. What oil change interval do you use?

[dropnosky]

I am not a fan of the elsbett kit, I love WVO, but the single tank system in any other climate than california and florida is impractible. Plus, I have heard some issues with oil blow by on the rings coming from starting on vegetable in colder areas. A heated tank system is a lot better, ive run mine up to canada for the ice festival in quebec, no problems on WVO. Plus, you dont have to go nuts with industrial injectors and other stuff, just lower the viscosity of the oil to diesel, and filter it cleaner than diesel. 2 micron, runs like a dream after thousands of miles

[Sysco Kid]

My first p707 filter only lasted 2000k :mad: I believe because I was using virgin oil.
I had gotten 2- 55 gallon drums of "fry"oil and was thinking I would pamper
Grease Lightning not realizing the gumming effect of virgin oil. After I started
with the WVO I got 8500 on my next filter. I'm now on my third but am using a blend of WVO and diesel. It should take me well into spring.

Nice ice storm in Boston today :eek:

Michael