Hydrogen Boost Systems (& MBZ Diesels)

[Garlynn]

Hi,

So, I just purchased Eleanor, a 1987 300TD turbo wagon, last month from the family of the original owner. She's in pristine condition, as far as I can tell. When I took her for a test drive, the owner really wanted to impress on me how *fast* she is -- apparently, his uncle bought her in Germany, then imported her via the US Armed Services, so while she is a German Benz, she's not Gray Market (though she does have her VIN on the driver's side roof support strut). Bottom line: She's in great shape, as far as I can tell. We drove her to Portland from San Francisco and back over the holidays, running a mix of regular and biodiesel for most of the trip. As a result, she now has about B60 (60% biodiesel) in her tank

However, I am considering doing two things to her:

1) Installing Elsbett's injectors & the other components necessary to give her a single-tank multi-fuel system for WVO, SVO, Biodiesel or regular diesel (including new hoses, filter/heaters, etc.)

2) Installing a hydrogen boost system, as outlined here:

http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/

It's really this second point that I'd like some advice on. Basically, the concept is this:

1) Electrical line off the alternator/electrical system runs to a hydrolysis tank.
2) Hydrolysis tank produces hydrogen and oxygen ions from the water.
3) These ions (some call this a plasma gas) are fed into the fuel intake (pre-turbo, in Eleanor's case, I believe -- would like some advice on this) of the engine.
4) The ions cause a more thorough combustion of the fuel in the combustion chamber, more quickly, at a higher temperature.
5) The result is increased fuel economy, increased power, and decreased emissions of everything except carbon dioxide. Basically, the unburned fuel/emissions are burned and turned into CO2 instead of what they would have been.
6) Driver must refill/top-off the electrolysis tank with water at the same interval as filling the fuel tank with fuel.

For a diesel engine, this is supposed to produce about a 10-14% increase in fuel efficiency & power. Potentially a 40% reduction in some emissions, varies by emittant.

Questions:

1) Where exactly in the air system of a 1987 300TD Turbo would this thing hook up to, and how? I've heard the "pre-turbo." Does this sound right?
2) What dangers, if any, might it represent to the engine?
3) I'm guessing that there might be a large synchronicity between this system and an Elsbett system, because the higher temperature of combustion and the additional fuel line heater might assist the engine to deal with SVO/WVO. Anybody care to back me up on this, or refute it?

Any other general comments?

Any technical advice & assistance would be much appreciated. :-)

Thanks!!

...and happy new year 2007!

cheers,
~Garlynn

[Don350SDL]

The abbreviation "TANSTAAFL" comes to mind.

It means "There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Just how efficient do you believe the process for converting electricity from the alternator into hydrogen and oxygen is? And, where exactly is that energy to spin the alternator coming from?

Even if the loss is 1% (and trust me, it's a lot higher), it's still a net loss. menaing, you are burning more diesel fuel than you are getting back in power.

So, considering the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy, does this still sound like a good idea?

Don

[johnmci]

I recall reading a report that there was testing of these hydrogen injection systems in Canada in the trucking industry, and if say you drive a truck from Toronto to Vancouver you do in fact get a percent or two improvement in mileage. Doing that a few 100K per year and it saves money.

Lets see http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,69529-0.html
However note the $4k to $14K cost, all the canadian vendors of these products target the trucking industry, so perhaps waste energy that would go into heat production and loss thru the radiator is converted into electrical energy which generates hydrogen which assist in burning the diesel better. Similar results (or better) could likely be obtained by better fuel system/burning management I'd think. Witness the fuel economy numbers between a om603 versus bluetec engine. They *are* both diesel engines...

Sounds good, but I'd say for small diesel engines you'd get worst mileage.

Now of course if you could convert the heat normally sent to the radiator to electrical energy then to hydrogen that would work nicely, but I don't recall seeing system that let you do that, and I do recall some diesel cars that require electrical heating system since waste heat is non-existent, all energy to transportation, versus heating the planet.

Lastly I'll note the manufacture of the system you're looking at helpfully gives you "magic potions" to mess with fuel and oil, against mercedes recommendations about not using fuel and oil additives. By using these products and testing before/after you likely are more testing the possible benefit of cleaning the injector system, and changing the viscosity of your oil. Each of which might increase mileage, hiding the fact the hydrogen system does nothing. Injector cleaning is something that can be required from time to time depending on the quality of the fuel you deal with. On the other hand snake oil treatment can shorten the life or destroy your engine. Switching to true synthetic oil likely would give the same mileage increase without the dangers.

Lurkers should note that mercedes now sells fuel additives to be used where the quality of the fuel is suspect. I'll guess the north american government standards for fuel quality have become so substandard that engines out of europe have trouble dealing with cheap generic gas where the vendor does not add any magic chemical boost at the pump as part of their our gas is better marketing. Anyway for gasoline engines it's 000989254510. Our local dealer btw notes use of another brand of fuel additive during the B service, I believe, greatly reduced warrenty work/replacement of fuel level sensors on new benzs. Nothing about mileage here, but certainly something about varnish and perhaps water in the fuel system causing an issue that older benz were mostly ignorant of.

[LUVMBDiesels]

I don't want to burst your bubble but...

I looked at the web site you mentioned and it says that it takes 20-30 amps to generate the hydrogen gas! That is a lot of your alternator's output. in an 80's vintage MB yo have an 85amp alternator.

I also wonder about generating an exposive gas (remember the Hindenburg) inside your car. You would probably be better off installing an oxygen cylinder froma welding kit if you want more combustion O2 and are not afraid of blowing up! :D

Look at the Diesel Discussions forum for a lot of modifications you can do to make vast improvments in your car's performance. For starters loook for ALDA changes and for Bowden or kickdown cable adjustments. Doing these made my car much faster.

Good luck with your new car!

[VLayton]

I don't want to burst your bubble but...

I looked at the web site you mentioned and it says that it takes 20-30 amps to generate the hydrogen gas! That is a lot of your alternator's output. in an 80's vintage MB yo have an 85amp alternator.


Some as low as 65Amp and even 55amp!

This system looks like a scam. If you buy this, you do not truly have a problem affording regular approved fuel for the car, or truly care about keeping the car working well for you AS a car in the long economical cost-per-mile potential. The kit cost, your time cost (whatever value you place on it) and resulting damage costs are definates, and the fuel saving costs will be inconsequential. You are buying your own multi-thousand dollar experiment for a personal motivation, which is okay as long as you understand that. The world does not always behave as we wish. Since even charities are corruptible, you cannot place faith in the intentions of this company.

There aren't a whole lot of those fine models. It's your car and it's a free country and you can do to it what you want. I think it's a shame what things you intend to impose upon it.

[Garlynn]

First off, thanks for everybody's good comments so far.

With regards to the laws of thermodynamics: I believe this question has been answered by road-testing of the device on other vehicles. Water is the additional input to the system, not the work from the engine. The additional hydrogen and oxygen ions from the water are the extra inputs that are giving the performance increases, as I understand it. Also, the cost is $950, not $3-5,000.

As for the "snake oil", that was one of my questions. Are the diesel engine treatments outlined significantly different from just running synthetic oil in the engine?

Finally -- would the additional heat of injecting hydrogen and oxygen ion into the combustion chamber help to more fully combust WVO or SVO?

[VLayton]

I am unable to answer the thermal dynamic questions and very little about WVO/SVO since I refuse to deal with it. I know enough about it that makes me want to have as little to do with it as possible. Commercial (genuine) biodiesel is another matter. My answers are often regarded as unpopular amongst the non-purist mentality alternative fuel idealist types. I exercise restraint (believe it or not) but your post just compelled me to at least express some grief, maybe some wisdom. It's not fair to always ignore the steady flow of folks who get MB involved by these politico-enviro-cost compulsions. I've just found in my experience MBs are great, faithful cars as designed and 98% of the time MB had it right to begin with. The best technology is refined and improved many many times before it becomes so. This is simply not. My continued philosphies will hopefully continue to aid some from detrimental-to-the-car activites. I don't want to think or call folks like you stupid or anything, maybe just misguided. Always remember WHO you're talking too. If you are looking for the MB enthusiast owner experience angle as PART of your overall research, well that's what you get here, take it at it's value to you.

Anyways, That kit may only be $950, but how much was the car you may end up ruining? How much in other things have you/will you have to spend on the car's other needs? How much cost for materials and what-not for any of the veg-oil goals? Sales tax? Registration? Yes, you'd have to do that for any car, but this car's actual costs would be all grouped into "Cost for the Whole Experiment." Just because it's done and paid for doesn't mean it's no longer part of the sum cost.

You're welcome to participate here, and will likely get good info if not exactly what you're looking for. You should know this groups TENDS to be rather OE about their advice, it comes from decades of MB ownership and experience.

Thanks for being mature enough to not get bent outta whack over my comments, I'll try to leave you to it.

Good luck,

[Garlynn]

You know, I rather suspected the flavor the comments that I would receive here might run anti-modification. Also, I'm not *#*#*#*#-bent on this modification, I'm just open-minded. So, I really *do* appreciate all the responses, and I really appreciate a healthy debate of this proposal on its merits. Maybe we'll all decide to go out and install some of these on our benzes at the end of the discussion. Maybe you'll all sway me and I'll save my money for other endeavours. Maybe I'll just do it myself and you all will pity me for wasting my money on it. Maybe it would work; maybe it might not. I'm just trying to collect as much information as possible before making a decision. :)

With regards to the alternator -- that's a really excellent point. Might I imperil the vehicle by attaching this 25 amp draw to the existing alternator? Is this more than, say, the 250-watt amp & subwoofer that other folks like to put in the trunk of their mercedes sedan for that extra "whoomp" (& which I personally wouldn't mind having if I could somehow hide it completely such that it didn't take away from the cargo area)?

That is, what's the wiggle room like on these alternators? Are they 85 amps because, when the Benz is running, it draws 75 amps with all its stock accessories turned on and there needs to be just a little bit of wiggle room? Or are they 85 amps because it draws 45 amps and there's a *lot* of wiggle room built into this over-engineered design?

[Don350SDL]

Water is the additional input to the system, not the work from the engine. The additional hydrogen and oxygen ions from the water are the extra inputs that are giving the performance increases, as I understand it.
...and where does the energy to turn water into it's component H and O ions come from? Whatever you believe is the source for that energy - it doesn't happen by itself - that input of energy to the system must be accounted for.


Regarding the alternator: It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for a mechanically inclined soul to retrofit a larger alternator onto there.

Don

[sparker]

Interesting information here, Garlynn, if you decide to go ahead with the system please keep us posted on how it works out.

I've been working on adding supplemental electric fuel heating elements to my WVO converted 1980 300D, and the first thing I did was to switch my alternator for a rewired 100 amp output. Yes, you don't get something for nothing, but the extra energy required to drive the higher output alternator comes from WVO - cleaner than petro-diesel and a lot cheaper (free). I'm in the preliminary stages, and will have to wait for warmer weather to find out if my designs will work or not (I can only work on my car outside).

I have complete respect for these wonderful vehicles, but that does not preclude my pursuing interesting modifications. Do you think the original MB engineers of a century ago would have any problem tinkering with their cars? Innovation comes from those willing to take a chance on something new, not from those who want to conserve artifacts - Steven

[Garlynn]

Howdy,

I haven't yet installed a Hydrogen Boost system on Eleanor. Or even an Elsbett system. These are long-term modifications, so I'm taking my time on doing due diligence, making sure that it is what I really want to do.

However, I did want to share with you all this article, from today's San Francisco Chronicle, about a different company (OK, guy in a garage), based in Livermore, CA, that is also making one of these systems:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/02/03/MTGDKNTC831.DTL

According to the article, somebody in a 1984 Mercedes 240D has installed one of these, and has seen up to a 40% increase in mileage as a result:

He sold one of the devices in November 2006 to Wendy Lang and Phillip Weber, who live in Larkspur, and they had it installed on their 1984 Mercedes-Benz 300D diesel-powered car. Lang and Weber said that on a round trip from Marin County to Fresno, they realized a 40 percent savings on fuel.

Lang said in an e-mail that, "Around town before installation, we were getting about 18 to 20 mpg. We checked for a few weeks before we got it. On the trip (to Fresno) it was 30 mpg. Around town we haven't had time to check for sure, but it seems to be around 28 mpg."

This seems to be a *lot* higher than the 10-14% that others have reported with these systems on a diesel engine. On the other hand, this is the first report I've seen of an installation on a *Mercedes* diesel engine. Perhaps there's a connection there somewhere?

As to where the energy comes from, I do wish that somebody, like perhaps that skeptical professor up at UC Davis who is mentioned in the article, would just do the research to try to figure this out. My personal hunch is this: The energy comes from the water. After all, it's not like this system is being added to the car, and nothing changes otherwise. One thing does change. Every time the fuel tank gets filled up, a new water tank inside the engine also gets filled up. The water represents an additional input into the system. While some energy is removed from the engine to electrolyze the water, my hunch is that more energy is stored within the water, in the form of elemental hydrogen & oxygen, released in the form of ion gas. Because the water tank must be constantly refilled in order to keep the process going, the energy must be that which is stored within the water.

Sure, it's hard to think of water as storing energy, but in this case, it seems to be the case. The ions from the water are burned in a combustion process that is already in progress using diesel (or gasoline). That's probably why this system would work, whereas it might be more difficult to, say, create a fuel-cell call from scratch that electrolyzes its own fuel and only requires that water be poured into the tank to run. If there is a maximum of 10-40% efficiency gain, that's probably enough to increase the efficiency of an already-existing internal combustion engine, but not enough to run by itself.

*shrug* laymans thoughts. But, does anybody else have a better explanation of why this might work?

Back to the real question at hand: I'd be curious to ask Philip Weber & Wendy Lang if they've needed to add a bigger alternator to their 240D. :)

[johnmci]

Yes, hydrogen does contain energy in fact hydrogen nuclear bombs take advantage of that fact. But that's not what is going on, I'll refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis. If you look at what's required you'll wonder where the $850 is going. Likely an optimum solution using platinum would be a bit pricey (http://www.thomassci.com/catalog/product/3581) Still not $850 pricey

Someone early asked about efficiency and the wikipedia aritcle states perhaps only a 50% efficiency in converting energy to hydrogen, also then add in how efficient the alternator is in converting diesel/hydrogen energy into electrical energy and the numbers are quite dismal.

Lastly the 28mpg or 30 mpg quote in the article is *normal* figures for a 300D of that era. A figure of 18-20 mpg points to a serious problem with the vehicle, perhaps the highway run coughed out enough in-town carbon buildup (the usual effect) that it would put mpg back to expectation. Or perhaps a mechanic adjusted the valves as part of doing a long forstalled maintenance task as part of wiring up said device.

[maci]

found another offering, these guys talk about the brown fuel concept
http://www.nationalvapor.com/picturegallery.htm


electrolysis article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis


so has anyone tired it??? the more expensive "kit" has a fuel heater and i have read that diesels can gain efficiency in the injected fuel temp is about 85-95 C

i have a E320 CDI getting about 33 MPG City/Hwy driving, about 40 Hwy
also looking at using wvo but its wifes car and my life would be over fast if i broke our "new" car
love the forum and the opinions pro and con

[Garlynn]

So, according to the National Vapor website, the main reason why the hydrogen boost systems work is that normally, an alternator is spinning at a constant rate, and producing excess energy that does not otherwise get used by the car. It is this excess energy that the hydrogen boost systems tap into to produce the hydrogen (or, rather, hydrogen & oxygen ions, or Brown's Gas) that is sucked into the air intake, causes the fuel to combust at a higher temperature, and thus produces more work from the same amount of fuel.

Hey, I'm as skeptical as you are.

But, I did get this email from Wendy Lang, who was mentioned in that SF Chronicle article as having one of these systems installed on her diesel Benz:

"We had to do nothing other than install the generator.
David Jewell's system is much more advanced. The
difference is on the inside. It's complex physics, so
no claims on understanding it, but his uses tap water
and mineral content to make hydrogen, with much more
bang to the amps and much easier use for the driver.
www.nationalvapor.com."

When I told her:

"I had mainly been
looking at a generator from www.hydrogen-boost.com, which appears to
have a nearly identical interior to the national vapor system, but has
a metal rather than plastic exterior.

"I'm very curious to hear anything else you might to say about
performance, gas mileage or anything else that you have noticed since
installing the system in your benz. Also, did you do the installation
yourself, or have it done at a mechanic?"

she replied:

"Well, David Jewell has taken all these units apart,
and the others are very different inside. His is all
stainless with an advanced set of plates, cathodes and
diodes, which interact in a very specific way that is
patented, to create the hydrogen in the most efficient
way possible from the water. The plastic exterior is
to insulate the interior. Oddly, the other units look
like his, but they aren’t. He has told me about the
others as I have inquired about why his is different,
and I have been there when he was trying the other
kinds on his truck. The only other one that is
similar is a unit that is leased to truckers in
Canada. So I know that my results won’t be the same
with your unit. I get about 40% better mileage on the
highway and 35% around town, and that’s the
conservative estimate. "

Personally, I'm not convinced yet. I wrote an email to these National Vapor guys that Wendy used, and haven't yet heard back with replies to my questions -- I was asking for details of their "money-back performance guarantee." I'm just more than a bit nervous about messing around with the air intake system & the turbocharger, & would like to have some assurance that said messing would result in something tangible and beneficial!

I will keep you all posted, and please let me know if you hear of anybody else installing one of these on a Benz!

cheers,
~Garlynn

[Maxbumpo]

The reason that anyone gets a mileage increase with any of these devices is due to psychology, not physics.

The car owner/driver 'attaches the magnets to fuel lines' 'installs the vortex generator' 'installs the hydrogen generator' and starts to pay very close attention to how he/she drives. The result: unconciously, he/she wants to get better mileage, so they are much more gentle on the throttle and start driving more slowly, and perhaps perform other maintenance on their car at the same time. The combined effect is an increase in mileage, and it has nothing to do with the 'miracle device' that has been installed.

Keep your tires inflated, use good quality fuel, change your air/fuel filters on schedule, and keep your car in good condition, and SAVE your money or invest it in oil companies.

See if anyone has done any rigorous, published, peer-reviewed (eg. double blind) testing to confirm the benefits of these devices.

[Alex]

Garlynn,

From reading your references it appears that the punch line is: "Guys, it's to complicated to explain. And you wouldn't understand it if I did. And besides, it's proprietary."

This is an old ploy that I heard Dr. Amar Bose use 30 years ago when he addressed audio engineers at an Audio Engineering Society meeting in New York, to explain how his "new" direct/reflecting principle worked in his loudspeaker. When I grabbed him after his talk, he said it wasn't really all that complicated but he had to rush to catch a plane back to Boston and couldn't take the time to explain it. Marketing is one thing. Physics is quite another.

Such an attitude was out of line then, just as it is off-base now with this different subject. The vast snake oil field is never-ending.

Nothing more needs to be known about this thing until you understand it and can explain it in plain words that make sense.

[Garlynn]

Max & Alex,

I think that I've come to agree with you guys on this topic. That lack of peer-reviewed, double-blind studies that you mention, plus the inability of the manufacturers to offer a true money-back performance guarantee, just makes me nervous.

Plus, the test results that have been published on www.hydrogen-boost.com do seem to indicate at best only a 1% performance boost actually attributable to the hydrogen unit itself.

Negligible.

Certainly not worth the $8-900 being charged for these devices.

As you suggest, I think I'll save my money for the brake job, water pump replacement and new tires that are much more pressing concerns right now.

cheers,
~Garlynn

[dropnosky]

This may be a little late in the game, but is there a reason that it has to be hydrogen? I have tried the propane gas bottle game and found it to work quite nicely, you can also do the same thing with methane. Whats nice about both of these add ons, is that they can be rigged up like a nos boost for a gas car. push button, or computer controlled WOT activation.


Also, let me plead with you to consider not using a lovecraft or elsbett single tank system. let me put it this way, an old benz will run on vegetable despite these conversions, no because of them. You would be much better off getting a two tank system, believe me, I know. Elsbett is a very convincing deal, but it is possible to force fuel past the rings on cold starts with veggie with them. I did this, plus, lets say you go skiing or something, start out with a full tank of veggie, and boom, it gels up at the end of the day. I want to run of veggie everwhere, not just in warm climates. big injectors and long time glowplugs do not help that much. Two tank system, I beg you- try these sites- Greasecar.com, Goldenfuelsystems.com

[Maxbumpo]

The propane or methane idea is very dangerous - you could easily melt your pistons trying that - I know of at least two cars that have been destroyed in this manner.

[dropnosky]

Im talking about doing it in moderation, They do this all the time in performance shops with the correct controls. Well executed it will burn better and boost power without damaging components. You are right, if you just release camp stove propane into the air intake at a not regulated volume, you can do that. But there is no reason to not try and push performance safely. I am really interested in seeing what the car can do at peak output

[Rolo]

Garilynn

The company in Canada that has been mentioned in this thread can be found through this link: http://www.chechfi.ca
I am not connected to this company but a good friend of mine has been working there for the past 5 years or so.
I know they have had impressive results with their units in the trucking industry and have expanded into the states. The demand is high because these bolt on units save money and pay for themselves very quickly.
I guess if adding hydrogen didn't work these truckers wouldn't give it a second look.
I have a 1980 300D and would love to give it a try with one of their smaller units.