A different kind of "performance."

[dolebludger]

"Performance" can mean many things. My '04 C 320 sedan is not my race/competition car. (My S 2000 IS.) Rather, my C 320 is our family sedan, and is assigned typical sedan duty.

The OEM tires are Michelin Energy MXV4's -- 205/55H/16. The good thing about them is that they have 30K miles on them, and the tread looks ready to go another 30K. But in the past week, I discovered a major downside of these tires. They get horrible traction on snow. Worse than my Ford pickup. Worse than my S 2000! While I certainly didn't buy the C 320 as my "snow car", the lack of traction was to an unacceptable degree.

Then, I looked at Tire Rack's survey for tires for this car. I have always felt that the OEMs were quiet and smooth-riding. But then, I've never had any other tires on this car with which to compare them. The survey (if it is to be believed) indicated that these OEM tires were actually not quiet and smooth riding, compared with alternatives!

So my question is this. For typical "sedan duty" what would be the best replacement tire for this car?

[Ferdman]

Richard, take a look at the Micehlin MXV4 S8 tires. They're available in a 205/55 HR16. I recently installed a set on our 1995 E320 and am very pleased with the quiet ride and performance ... better traction in rain and snow than the MXV4 Energy Plus tires that I formerly used.

[JimVillers]

Richard ..... Mercedes really doesn't compete with a Honda S2000. My "driver" is a Porsche Boxster 'S' and I have had it on the track but it is not as much fun as my 2.3-16 with its supercharger. In all honesty, the Porsche is faster, has more power, wider tires, a 6-speed and a stiffer suspension. My feeling is that all of the sophistication does not improve the enjoyment. Feeling and hearing the car approaching its limits can be more fun in an older car.

On tires, I live in Virginia Beach where we get a light dusting of snow every year or so.

[dolebludger]

Jim:

Is that supercharged 190E a "factory job", an AMG, or did you add the supercharger? I'll bet that car is a blast to drive.

[JimVillers]

Richard .... My 2.3-16 is 100% home grown. Here is an old web page of my 16-valve project. (http://www.members.cox.net/bettyv/16v/jim_16v.htm) . It now has a digital engine management system, E430 brakes and other mods. I went from about 128HP to about 170HP on a dyno. I has been a VERY interesting project as I blew up the engine twice sorting out the fuel management system. It has moved from a daily driver to more of a track car as I kept tweeking it. The basic reply to your question is "yes, it is FUN". Not the fastest, the quickest or the most powerful but all fun.

[Maxbumpo]

Back to the important stuff: Tires!!

I'm considering the Continental Conti Pro Contact tires for my '87 300TD. They meet all the OE specs as far as speed rating and load capacity, and have decent reviews at Tire Rack. I am assuming (always a risk) that because Continental is one of the OE brands for MB, that the tire will allow the car to deliver close to EPA fuel consumption (other factors considered).

The information I'm missing to really make an informed decision is a comparison of rolling resistance values. I'm convinced that many aftermarket tires put rolling resistance consideration last when designing tires, because 'the market' has traditionally looked at only traction, noise, and longevity. When I put Bridgeston Turanza LS-H tires on my '85 300TD and my Wife's Infiniti I30, in both cases fuel consumption increased by about 10%.

On the other hand, car makers work closely with tire makers to balance all the characteristics, trading off traction for decreased rolling resistance, because they are under the gun to meet CAFE standards. OE tires are much more likely to deliver the EPA estimated mileage than aftermarket tires.

[dolebludger]

Meade:

I can provide only very limited info on these Continentals. I had a '97 Catera before buying the Mercedes. The OEMs on it were some sort of Goodyear Eagle, that were worn out in about 30K miles. I replaced them with the Continentals of which you speak. I found the ride became smoother, the road noise quieter, and the steering response better with the Continentals -- on the Catera. Also, they seemed OK on snow for the type of tire they are. I put about 18K on them with the Catera before I sold it. No noticeable wear at that point.

I note also that they are only $84 each from Tire Rack in the size I need for my C 320. That's much less than some of the competition.

I realize that a Mercedes is not a Catera (thank God), and that I was only comparing the Continentals to that particular Goodyear tire (with which I had some poor experience BEFORE the Catera). So I'd like also to see some Mercedes-specific comments on these Continentals.

[lkchris]

I'd suggest it's futile to search for all-season tires.

Get snow tires (now called cold-weather tires).

[dolebludger]

I certainly agree that it is futile to expect an "all seasons tire" to handle snow anywhere as well as a true winter tire. But my problem with the OEM Michelins on my C 320 wasn't that they didn't perform as well as winter tires on snow -- it was that they didn't even perform as well as my near-racing tires on my S 2000 on snow, and those are clearly designated as "summer tires."

[David Brittain]

Richard:

Are you taking into consideration also that C's are rear wheel drives and much worse in snow than front wheel drives?

I haven't taken my C out for several weeks because we've had snow on the ground here in Kansas after getting hammered by two back-to-back snow storms. I know full well I'd only be asking to get stuck with the C.

On the other hand, my little Accord, with it's front wheel drive and all season Michelon's, does just fine.

Dave

[David Brittain]

Richard:

Or is yours a 4-Matic? If it is and you're still getting horrible traction, I'd say just get rid of the bloody thing and buy a Chevy or something. :)

[dolebludger]

Dave:

My C 320 is RWD and has those all season tires on it. My S 2000 is also RWD, and has "summer rated" tires that are almost track tires. My pickup is RWD and has nine year old all season tires, and weighs next to nothing in the rear. So, my Mercedes was on more than equal footing with my other cars. Yet, it performed worse on snow. Has to be that the OEM Michelins just aren't good on snow. The good news is we get little of it around here.

[jfouse]

Richard,

For your RWD C class I recommend the Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S. Pirelli makes two versions of the P-Zero Nero, summer and M&S rated. I recommend the ultra-high performance W-speed and M&S rated version. That's the tire I've got on my 02 E430 4Matic, and it's, in my opinion, a wonderful tire. Better than the Pirelli P7000 SuperSport's that were the OEM tire. Got them from Tire Rack.

Living in Alaska I do not use this tire throughout the winter. However, I have found it'll provide very good light snow and ice traction, again better than the P7000, which was also M&S and W-speed rated. I'm sure it'll do the job for winter conditions in OK.

I had a set of P-Zero Nero M&S's on a Subaru SVX for two summers, and also had some winter condition experiences with that car/tires. It was fine until things got so bad as to put on the Nokian Hakka's for the serious winter work.

jfouse
Anchorage, Alaska

[dolebludger]

jfouse:

Your post brings up some questions perhaps I should ask and get clarification. My C 320's OEM tires are "H" speed rated. I have ben told by numerous sources that every time you upgrade in speed rating from H (to V, W, Z, or Y) you get a harder ride, a noisier ride, and quicker wear-out. Since my C 320 is OK with H speed rated tires, I was thinking of sticking with some H rated replacement for that reason.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[David Brittain]

Richard:

Yes, it is fortunate that you don't get a lot of snow down there, but it does occassionally happen. If I remember my years in Oklahoma, particularly when we live in Lawton area, we were more like to get ice than snow, which was sometimes very treacherous.

Anyway, I am watching this tire thread carefully hoping you guys sort all of this out before it is time for me to replace the Z rated tires on my C230. I think I'm going to have some additional challenges, however, because the C230 has staggered width tires. I'm afraid this may limit me even more when I try to find a tire that will give a little more quiet ride and longer tread life.

Dave

[jfouse]

Richard,

Yes, the "general rule" is as the speed ratings go up there are downsides with regard to wear, harsh ride and cold weather performance. My experience with the Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S was very positive in all respects.

In May 2005 I installed P-Zero's on the last SVX we hadand my wife actually thought I'd had new struts installed, as well. All I did was change from the P7000 SuperSports to the P-Zero's. The P7000 had a lower tread wear rating than the P-Zero's (300 vrs 400). They were both W speed rated, i.e., 168mph. I put new P-Zero's on the E430 4Matic last May, and they improved the ride over the P7000's, and in our opinion also improved the handling. My wife is now a P-Zero fan.

So not all speed rated tires are the same. Some come with a all season rating, some are M&S rated, and some are simply pure summer tires.

Pure summer tires begin to give up traction as high as +45F. They are fine for Florida, for example. I recommend a M&S rated tire for use anywhere it might snow. I use them in Alaska all summer because in some of the mountain passes it's possible to get back ice or even a slight dusting of snow anytime during the summer months. Same for the Yukon and NWT in Canada. I've been on the Alaska Hwy in July and August when it's snowed. Not much, but enough so that a pure summer tire would give zero traction.

Another tire you might want to look at is the Dunlop SP Sport A2. It's rated as a high performance all season tire with a M&S rating, and it's H speed rated. This past July I bought five of those in the 215/60-15 size for my WRX to use on the Alcan 5000 Rally. I paid something like $58 ea from Tire Rack, and figured that they would be "toast" after the rally. We ran them on gravel, pavement, mud, in the rain, and just hammered the poor things, and they were wonderful. They worked better than I ever thought they would. Very little tread wear and while it was difficult to tell the ride quality considering the suspension setup, it didn't get any worse. On I-5 for about 75-80 miles (odo check from the start in Kirkland, WA) they were fine. Quiet and not harsh.

I used those Dunlops in winter conditions last fall, and they worked just fine for what they are. While not a pure winter tire, they worked better than what I thought they would. They have a 460 tread wear rating, and it looks like I'll have them for quite a while.

For winter tires stay away from anything above a T speed (118mph) rated tire. H and V simply don't give the traction on ice and hard packed snow that a Q, R or T speed rated tire will.

jfouse

[Ferdman]

David, a V-rated tire would likely work fine as a replacement for the Z-rated tires on your C230. Some tire dealers may balk at installing anything but a Z-rated tire which their computer system will probably show as the proper speed rating for a 2000 C230. If so, buy a set from Tire Rack and take loose wheels to your local MB dealer and have them installed and balanced.

[David Brittain]

Fred:

Thanks for the tire advice and you also answered a question that I had not yet asked. That is, whether most of you let the guys at your local tire shop mount, balance and install your tires, or if you only allowed your MB dealership to do it. Thanks!

Dave

[Ferdman]

Dave, I don't know if the majority of MBCA members bother to have tires mounted at balanced at a MB dealer, but I wouldn't consider having a local tire dealer touch my wheels. The tire dealers don't have the MB 2-piece balance weights ... their weights not only scratch the wheels, but detract from the appearance of a MB wheel. Some newer models may have wheels without lips that use stick-on weights; however, our newest MB auto is 1998 and all use the 2-piece balance weights.

[David Brittain]

Fred:

Yes, I had the concern of a local tire shop somehow marring the wheels and using a different type balancing weight so I planned to take my car back to the dealer to mount tires.

I also understand that the dealerships somehow balance the wheels with adjsutment for the proportional weight each wheels bears. I think I read that here on one of the threads.

I didn't know, however, that you could purchase your tires somewhere else and then take them to the dealership to be mounted. Apparently, that is an acceptable practice and I'm glad to know that. Thanks!

Dave

[dolebludger]

Dave:

First, you are correct that dealers use balancing equipment that places weight on each tire calculated to be the same as the weight placed on that tire by the car with the driver sitting in it. At least, my local MB dealer does this. In fact, so does my local Honda dealer! As I recall, the last tire rotation and balance I had done at my MB dealer cost $50. In fact, both these dealers similarly compensate for the weight of the driver in allignment jobs as well. I like this, as it does make a difference. I think my MB dealer charges $99 for a four wheel allingment in this manner. My Honda dealer charges just a little less.

Yes, you certainly can take new tires to your MB dealer and have them installed, balanced, and get a four wheel allignment (the latter of which I'd recommend at time of tire change). And the MB weights will be used. Also, in my area, there are a number of "indy" MB repair shops that do the same procedure as the dealer with the MB weights, so you can check their prices too.

Yes, this is common practice. It's what I do on my S 2000 at my Honda dealer, and what I'll do on my C 320 when the time comes. You may pay more for the install, balancing, and allignment than at "Joes tire shop." But if you order your tires from Tire Rack, Discount Tire Direct, or the like, the lower prices for the tires will probably more than offset this. For exmple, the Dunlop Sport A2 Plus that were recommended to me below as a good "H" rated tire for my C 320 can be ordered from Tire Rack for $76 each, plus nominal shipping costs.

If put to the decission, I'd rather spend more on these better balancing and allignment jobs and less on the tire. That's because I find tire performance and longevity to be more dependent on allignment, balance, and proper inflation (the latter of which is up to me) that the tires themselves. Provided of couse that we get a tire with at least reasonable slippery road traction, quiet tread, and smooth ride.

As to the speed rating for the replacement tires for your C 230, I have never been able to understand why the OEMs on this car are Z. Z rated tires are rated OK for speeds WAY up there. Some with the Y sub-rating are rated at close to 200 mph. In some cases, they are used on cars not capable of such high speeds in cars with "high g force" cornering ability.In contrast, the C 230 is electronically limited to 130 mph, and doesn't pull enough g's in the corners to justify higher speed rated tires. You certainly could go to a V rated tire, but even that is over-kill at the expense of ride, niose, and treadwear. Vs are rated to 149 mph. Even if you defeat your electronic speed limiter, your C 230 just ain't going there! If I were you, I would go with an H rated tire on the C 230, just as I do with the C 320. Not all H rated tires (or any tires) are created equal. If you want to preserve your handling and cornering (or as much as you need in a C 230) you can go to Tire Racks web site (www.tirerack.com) and look at their performance charts on competing tires. chose one with a high cornering rating, and I'll bet you will accomplish your objectives, and get a quieter, smoother, and longer lasting ride to boot.

[David Brittain]

Richard:

Thanks for the information. I had planned to take my car back to the dealership for tires, in large part because of the balancing and alignment technique MB dealers use.

I planned also to take it back to the dealership for tires, even if it meant ending up putting on the same Michelin Z rated tires. I kind of worried that the service manager would try to get me to stick with the original equipment tires even if I wanted to do something else.

I'm glad to know that it's standard procedure to buy the tires of your choice and take them to the dealer for proper mounting and balancing.

I have gone to tirerack.com and checked out the tires that are available for my car and I was quite surprised at how good some of the prices were. I'm encouraged that I can find replacements that will give me a little better tread life and less road noise.

Thanks again!

Dave

[jfouse]

In this day and age there are so many good tires out there, and that's great for folks like us. Tire Rack and Discount Tire are both an excellent source. I've found these outfits have a larger variety of tires and better prices, even when you factor in freight. If I lived within a couple hundred miles of Tire Rack I'd just go there and get what I need. I've been to TR a couple of times, and they are super to do business with.

I'd take a long hard look at Tire Rack's and Discount Tire's websites before throwing down my $$$.

jfouse

[dolebludger]

Right!

In my area, dealers may sell tires, but they aren't really interested in getting into the tire business. My dealers for my vehicles (Mercedes, Honda, and Ford) freely admit that their selection is limited and their prices are too high! And my dealers correctly state that what they do best is to provide the best service, such as mounting, balancing, and allignment. They are a bit higher than "Joes Tire Shop" for these things, but (as stated above) it is worth it.

Here in the US, I am not aware of any law (state or Federal) that requires any speed rated tire for any car. In Germany and some other countries, they do have such laws -- but not here. So, here in the US, I could have "S" rated tires (110 mph) installed on my S 2000 which (as modified) will do over 160. I would not suggest this, however, unless one has a "death wish." Instead here, we are allowed to use our common sense. Those like Dave (and me) who own Mercedes electronically limited to 130 mph which have a skidpad rating of around .85g's can know that the speed rating on the tires we need is "H", and it does not matter that OEMs were Z rated or what.

After it has been decided that "H" rated tires are right for the car, that is when ratings, like Tire Rack's are helpful. Do you want better cornering or a softer ride? It is a trade-off. Same with other features of tire performance.

I think that tire selection for given vehicles is one of the most overlooked areas among enthusiasts. For example, I have a pickup truck, a high performance sports car, and a small near-luxury sedan (C 320). Tire selection criteria differ wildly for these three vehicles, and their three different purposes.