Taking a beat up 123 and restoring it

[AnthroProfessor]

Its getting harder trying to find nice kept 123 cars to purchase. Most are in the clutches of their collector fans. Most of us here are not first owners of these wonderful cars. We got them after rich people sold them after 5-15 years of ownership or bought them from a second owner who was finally wanting to get something new.

Now, a lot people that rig these cars own them for the last idles of life before trashing them. You know what type of people I am talking about. They don't look after the car anymore and let things go for as long as it could still take them places. Heck, these people will use a coat hanger to pop open the hood instead of investing in a hood release handle for $5.

Is it worth paying a few hundred or get them for free in order to restore them?

I have seen truely mint 123s go for over $10,000. You know, the ones that look barely used and have no outstanding repair issues. These are classic cars, so value retention is solid now.

So, spending $10,000 on a $500 123 is actually worth it in that sense. However, the money must be spent strategically. You can't just tow a beaten up 123 in Irvine's Mercedes Classic Center and say make it look new. I think you can end up with a bill of upwards of $30,000.

I think the most important thing to start with is the body, chasis and frame. One has to strip all the mouldings and lights off, including interior seats and dash. Drive train taken out too! The body must be looked over for rust and dents to be repaired. I am not trained in body work, so I would tow it to Irvine to have them go through the entire carcuss of the car and then repaint with original factory paint. Yes, the windows must be changed too. Tow the carcuss back and purchase new mouldings at wholesale from Calibur Motors. Putting mouldings on and the other fixtures is feasible to a home mechanic and fun too. It saves a lot of money to strip the car initially by yourself and then add on trim pieces once the car is painted.

Buy a new dash from the dealer, it makes a huge difference in appearance. That is DIY work too. I would change all the vacuum elements before installing the dash.

let's see here:

would it be $6000 for the Mercedes Center to just treat the body and replace front and rear windows considering I am doing the bulk of the stripping and putting trim back on myself?

It would be $1000 for a new dash and vacuum elements

It will be another $3000 for new mouldings, door weather stripping, etc. Perhaps the driver and passenger seat need reupholstery too.

This is $10,000 assuming my estimate at Irvine is correct. You will end up with a car that looks MINT on the outside. The interior will look just slightly used (sometimes using recycled MB Tex is a great solution), but still awesome considering the nice dash. This will result in one of the best looking 123s. However, you still got to worry about the engine, tranny, gear box and rims (that's another story).

Restoration is an art. You really have to see what you need new, what things you can repair yourself and what you have to let the Classic Center do. Sometimes recycled parts work well, but finding a dash is unlikely. However, the car is for yourself, so why shouldn't you invest in a new one for your own enjoyment. It is the one thing that you will look at the most while driving so it makes sense to pay the grand.

I doubt an engine would be dead in such a car and most times a new head will get it to work several more Ks. The tranny will most likely need an overhaul, but that's just $2500.

I would not want to spend $6000 on any of my car's body work right now because they are actually quite good--it would not make a huge difference in appearance for the amount of money involved. However, I think its more justified to spend the $6000 on a car that needs some rust repair, maybe a new fender (from junk yard), and has chipping, fading paint with lots of sun damage and the works.

I wrote too much. Let me see what you guys have to say.

[Don350SDL]

You're on the right track. Although anything can be repaired or replaced, starting with a near perfect body - no rust, dents, or other issues - is the way to go, because body work is the most expensive part of a "restoration".

It's nice to have an engine & trans that works. Even if not perfect, a running engine is far easier (= less costly) to restore to new than one in poor condition.

Count on suspension (running gear) to need replacement, there's $3k of your budget, but worth every penny. Includes tires & brakes.

The interior needs to be serviceable - big bucks items are the ones that always seem to fail (leather, dashboard, wood). But another $3k can go a long way here, especially for the DIYer

Then the "optional" systems, like sunroof, A/C, radio, etc. With some planning, you can kill all these for $2k, leaving $2k for the rest - maintenance, touch-ups, trim, and the like.

At that point, given a decent starter car, you have what will prove to be one very fine driver.

While I see many are partial to the 123, I personally would use a 124 for this exercise, because it is at least as solid of a car, plus can be had with ASR/ABS/SRS and more. They are easily as plentiful, and for $5k you can find a very nice example, needing at most another $5k for new condition.

If fuel economy was no concern, then a big 126 would be the car of choice - 560 SEL in particular are very cheap because of their fuel consumption, and you can find a darn near perfect example with 50k on the odometer for $6k day after day. Add some rubber and maintenance foir $2k and you have a $70,000 car (in 1991 dollars!) for well under $10k

My 0.02

Don

[VLayton]

Its getting harder trying to find nice kept 123 cars to purchase. Most are in the clutches of their .................as chipping, fading paint with lots of sun damage and the works.

I wrote too much. Let me see what you guys have to say.


You think you write too much?

To answer your questions and discuss the philosophies with you, would require far more characters than the 10,000 per post limit....

I've been reading most of your stuff for a while now, was looking to upgrade your status....but it seem doesn't state your membership...surely an enthusiast such as yourself would be a proud member of THE club.... ;)

[AnthroProfessor]

I like this thread that I started since only an enthusiast would really venture into this project.

Its OK to spend 10-15K on a 123 since that will be breaking even because the car will then be worth that much as pristine 123s do sell for over 10K very easily. However, in some cases, it may take 30K to make it pristine so restoration is a real art and not a cook book formula to follow.


Vince, if you think I am ready to join the CLUB, I will look into it. I think I am as enthusiastic about these cars as it gets. I have implied on several occasions that I want to open a shelter for discarded 123s because I want to keep more of them on the road and not in the scrap yard. Being that kind of fanatic and not part of the club is unheard of perhaps.

[Maxbumpo]

I think that there are two clubs for you to consider: MBCA and Club 123D.

[Grey Ghost]

This is an interesting thread as I am at a 'threshhold moment' with the Grey Ghost. In washing her this weekend I noticed that rust has finally gotten the upper hand with her coachwork, especially around the wheel wells. This spring I'm going to have to buck up and have it rectified at God-knows-what cost.

Of course, the HVAC system needs over hauling as well, as does the cruise control and seats.

The bill for all of this work will come to at least $3,000, bringing the amount of money I have invested in the Ghost to almost $25,000.

Clearly, there's NO market for my car at that level, as cars commanding those prices are trailer-queens with low mileage. The Ghost just turned 210,000.

[dropnosky]

whats three more thousand dollars for a car that must be as much friend as transportation?

I just had to make the same decision as well, and decided to list my 240 on ebay. At my point in life (young, stupid, and broke) I just cant afford to fix the rust on her. I have decided to trade endless rust issues, but dependable, for no rust, but untrustworthy this last month with an unknown junker 300D. If anthroprofessor had that warehouse, I would gladly give him my 240 to keep it out of a junk heap. Hopefully it goes to a better place with a larger cash flow and a kind eye

[Grey Ghost]

whats three more thousand dollars for a car that must be as much friend as transportation?This is EXACTLY what it comes down to, dropnosky. Somehow I'll justify the expenditure.

p.s. Don't think it has escaped my notice that I could have leased a very fine car indeed for the amount of money I've poured into keeping my wagon going!

[mgburg]

...Its OK to spend 10-15K on a 123 since that will be breaking even because the car will then be worth that much as pristine 123s do sell for over 10K very easily...Vince, if you think I am ready to join the CLUB, I will look into it. I think I am as enthusiastic about these cars as it gets. I have implied on several occasions that I want to open a shelter for discarded 123s because I want to keep more of them on the road and not in the scrap yard. Being that kind of fanatic and not part of the club is unheard of perhaps.

I'm surprised :eek: that Vince didn't mention this - but since you're looking at restoring a 123, the membership would entitle you to the often-mentioned MB-member 10% parts discount...since you'll be using ONLY OEM MB parts as part of your restoration? That ought to save you about ... $1,000.00 - $1,500.00???

RIGHT???

I'd say that's a pretty good ROI for your membership in the MBUSA.

( O.K. Vince...move in for the kill!!! ) :p

[VLayton]

I'm surprised :eek: that Vince didn't mention this - but since you're looking at restoring a 123, the membership would entitle you to the often-mentioned MB-member 10% parts discount...since you'll be using ONLY OEM MB parts as part of your restoration? That ought to save you about ... $1,000.00 - $1,500.00???

RIGHT???

I'd say that's a pretty good ROI for your membership in the MBUSA.

( O.K. Vince...move in for the kill!!! ) :p


It doesn't break down that simple, unfortunately, perhaps YOUR dealer gives you 10% (check that MSRP!) but there is no standard, dealers are "independant"

Not to say MBCA isn't worth a discount, even if it means they will ONLY charge you MSRP! :rolleyes:

[mgburg]

It doesn't break down that simple, unfortunately, perhaps YOUR dealer gives you 10% (check that MSRP!) but there is no standard, dealers are "independant" ... Not to say MBCA isn't worth a discount, even if it means they will ONLY charge you MSRP! :rolleyes:
Touche'!
:D

[VLayton]

Anyone see that 1985 300TD euro for sale for a paltry $29,500?

That's about 70% cost of a US turbo wagon restoration! :eek:

[AnthroProfessor]

Skip,

If it took $3000 to rid a car of rust in the best quality workmanship, I would not hesitate. The problem is finding quality work. I have seen restoration work where the rust comes back after a couple years. Good body shops offer a lifetime warranty for workmanship--meaning that you have rights whenever you can determine that their workmanship resulted in rust again (environmental factors don't count). A good restoration job should hold a lifetime unless paint chips or other disasters happen.

Keeping a car garaged and then having rust in 3 years means the workmanship was bad. Keeping a car outside on salty roads during the winter will eventually result in premature rust, but its not the fault of the workmanship in that case since even factory paint work cannot withstand that abuse.


$25,000 already invested? How many years? What was the acquisition price of the car?

Leasing might not have been cheaper. You cannot compare a 123 to a no options Toyota Corolla. Those are completely two different classes of cars.

A lease for a new E-Class is about $400/month for arguments sake. In two years, you spent $9600 plus who knows how many thousand for the down payment. 5 year lease will have exceeded what you spent on the grey ghost. With a lease, you have a limited mileage and you end up with nothing after the lease expires.

Or think of it this way. A new 123 costs $31,000 during the first year it was sold. You have not exceeded that yet. It sounds like you had the grey ghost for a long long time, hence the high dollar spent.

A new E-Class today costs over $50K.

The longer you keep your car the more you invest, but it is on average still cheaper that buying brand new. Even a brand new Mercedes will need repairs after 4 years of warranty is gone. So that $50K will only grow after the first 4 years.

I think I spent about $15K in parts and repairs on my 1981 300D from 1990-2007. A lease would not have saved me more money. Granted, I still need a new tranny for this car, but I am still ahead even with that huge expense.

[Alex]

From an economic standpoint, one can argue either way and not be wrong. That's because the decision to restore is not about the money.

It costs money to keep a car. But there is not a significant difference in cost between keeping a car really nice and trading it for another nice car periodically.

Because time passes so quickly we sometimes underestimate the long periods during which little money was spent on maintenance. So when multiple service expenses come up suddenly, it's startling. If maintenance cost is too much over a long period, one has the wrong car.

Most of us want safe, reliable transportation with character, plus familiarity with all aspects of what we’re driving. Having found a fine classic car that doesn't go out of style for decades, one ought to use it until one can't.

There does come a time when one gets weary of dealing with an aging car's problems, especially if they come at short intervals. Doubts about finding the right body shop to get the rust out doesn't help.

But unless the eye is captured by a worthy successor, the car ought to be kept until there are no more choices.

[AnthroProfessor]

I like Alex's argument that keeping an old car running vs. buying a new one can have economic arguments on both sides.

I have grown to love the 123 and learned ways to better care for and maintain by myself with a few visits to Mercedes Techs when the job is beyond my current skill level.

For me, the 123 is very efficient because I know the car in and out. I can anticipate most things and never worry about getting stranded. I know where to buy MB parts cheap and can do the maintenance myself, so I keep the costs way down. Every once in awhile, one needs a big ticket item like an axle, injector pump, transmission, body work, but no car can avoid those given some length of time and the 123 has proven to be more durable than most. If I buy a tranny from MB, at least I know I am good for 150K+ and can expect more because of the care I give.

My expenses were a lot the first few years of ownership, but I have learned to do many of the repairs myself with the same or better quality of work, that I have become efficient. If I were to have another car, the learning curve has to start all over.

I think its more people's perception of the situation that rules their decision, not the actual empirical data. I have people telling me to get rid of my old car so I would not have to deal with repairs--these are the same people that have gone through and upgraded to several cars already. Soon as a major repair is coming their way, they get rid of the car real cheap and buy another one which is more expensive thinking they saved money by not spending it on repairs (they don't count how much they lost with acquiring the newer model though).

Some people, like me, like to keep their cars for a very long time and don't envy the newer models at all. Others have very little patience in maintaining the cars themselves so they opt for leasing or flipping every so often. To each his own I guess. No one is wrong on this if they feel happy and still have their finances in order at the end of the day. My friend who leases a BMW for $800/month is happy and he has his finances in order-owns a small business, has a condo, etc, no credit card or student loan debt. That is good for him. Granted I don't earn as much as him, but I have sterling credit, only student loan debt, savings and keep chugging with my 123s.

[Don350SDL]

The 123 owner does tend to get emotional. Vince, I think you found a kindred spirit here, but I didn't realize that until he mentioned a 'retirement home' for 123s. You seem to be running one, as I recall...

Anyway: the costs of car ownership - indeed, of most anything - follow what is called a "Bathtub" curve - it starts out high, sinks quickly to a relatively low and constant level, stays there for a time, then rises again at the far end.

This is true for all things, some follow more closely than others though. Initial costs are high (aka "debugging"), then you enter the flat part of the curve, where costs remain relatively constant. Careful maintenance can keep this curve flat for years. But, inevitable, one reaches the other end of the curve, where cists begin to rise considerably. It is at this point where the rational being sells the car, and finds a replacement.

Sure, you can put in the money and end up in a new curve - or you can find another vehicle, and start the process again. Sure, there's that initial expense, but then it'll be in the middle of the bathtub for a while.

The decision is then, will it cost more to 'refurbish' the car I have, or 'refurbish' a different one? Emotion does have a place here, as does "the devil you know versus the devil you don't". All this assumes you actually like the car, of course.

So, while ti can be boiled down to numbers, there are the irrational factors of emotion, comfort, and convenience, plus some (educated) guesswork involved in figuring out the actual costs involved. Every case is different, but some clear thinking is possible.

It comes down to you: If you think a 300D turbo in good repair and condition is at least equivalent to a 2 year old Lexus, then spending $25000 is not too much.

Don

[Gray Poupon]

I put over $6K in my car and wouldn't hesitate doing it again. It's a case of "till death do us part" for me. My 123 is the most pampered vehicle in my fleet.

[Highway Star]

My 123 is the most pampered vehicle in my fleet.


Same here. It's the only car I garage in winter.

[Sticks2fast@mac]

Hey Guys and Gals. I'm new to the Site and just joined. I from CT and as some here would now that the winters around here rust the crap of of these car from the people like who you said. "Just don't care". My First car was a 81 280CE. I still have it. But in the line of work i'm in and my hobbies I drive a big Ford Dually Diesel every day. So the time came when my 11's Mustang was not a canidate to just drive around. Since the 81 was just sitting to long and needed too much. So I ventured out. I said I want another 280CE to drive, not as a beater car but one I was not affraid to drive.

So I found one in San Jose, CA and had it shipped from West coast to East coast. The car got here and I took one look at it and said it's to nice and too good of shape. I want it perfect now like everything else I have. So the car is heading down to NY next month to under go the restore. The whole Drivetrain, Body, Interoir is being done. Every will be factory correct and matching like it would have from M-B. But as far as price goes I'm looking at about An Easy $12-15k when it's all said and done and it maybe more considering what I find behind the Dash. That's also not including what I paid for the car. This is a great Thread and I'll keep everybody posted on how it comes along.

[AnthroProfessor]

Welcome to the boards!

You mentioned your first 280CE was beat up. Why not just submit that for restoration instead of one that was already good?

[Sticks2fast@mac]

Welcome to the boards!

You mentioned your first 280CE was beat up. Why not just submit that for restoration instead of one that was already good?

The car was restored about 6-7 years ago. But's amazing how fast the car rusted out. I've seen anything like it. I drove it as a daily after it was restored in 2000. I parked the car May of 2003 and it's been sitting since. It's not just Body rust. The top of the Strut Towers and Where the Shocks connect are just gone. It's not worth Cutting it out and I'm a fanatic about things looking and being orignal so I opted for a much better canidate and where better to look for one then the west coast. I'll be parting the 81 out or selling as a parts car. The 78 is a super solid car and and 94k on the clock.

[roncor]

I did a restoration on my 2 owner 163K mile 1980 240D a couple years ago. It involved replacing front doors and fenders, and a complete paint job by a friend, so costs were not that great. The interior was already good, and I only replaced the rear bench seat padding. I am a detail nut, and after many months of cleaning, finished in second place in a Chicagoland MBCA Concours event. The first place winner had only 45K miles on his!

Here are pics of the restoration:http://www.benzworld.org/gallery/showmembers.php?cat=13547

and after:

[stricht8]

There was a pristine 83 300D with >100,000 miles for sale at a MB dealership in Long Island, New York this past November. They were asking $12,000 and wouldn't budge. I thought it was a major rip-off. After reading these posts, I might of changed my mind.
Dimitri

[AnthroProfessor]

Dimitri,

Only $12K ???? Not a rip off, that's a bargain for a MINT 1983 300D. I don't see Mercedes-Benz 10 years old at the dealerships, let alone a 123.

I would pay that!


Roncor is my new hero. Way to go in restoring a beat up car!!! That's what being an enthusiast is all about. Looks very nice.

[Boneheaddoctor]

The way I look at it is from a bang for the buck perspective.

How much will it cost to get you back in A-1 shape on a car you can reasonably expect to drive another 100K miles relatively trouble free. How much new car would that same amount of money buy? If you end up a little top heavy with the restoration then add in how much that car means to you.

I have a low threshold as to what I will put up with compared to many. I truly hate fighting rust for example. Blame that on growing up in Pittsburgh, PA without a lot of money. Bondo was my best friend in those days.

[mustapha63701]

Hello,

I would recommend against starting off with a poor example at all. In fact, it has been my experience that it is far cheaper to find a nice, well cared for vehicle rather than to try and mend a fairly abused or neglected example. By the way, w123 chassis vehicles are probably among the most numerous models produced by Mercedes-Benz and surely, there must still be many nice examples around. Only a few examples of these vehicles are deemed to be “collector” interest vehicles and even then, the re-sale prices can be very disappointing. Wagons and coupe’s tend to fetch a bit more than the sedan variants (in similar condition, of course) and you may opt for one of these. Be forewarned however that the wagon variants have hydraulic suspensions that could easily add a few more thousand dollars to your over all restoration costs.

Parts for these vehicles tend to be on the cheap side, for now, but I look for the prices to increase in a few more years as parts begin to “dry-up.”
As for finding an appropriate model, I would recommend going with an ’84 or ’85 model vehicle as these are typically the most rust-proof examples. The late 1970’s and early 1980’s models had issues with proper rust-proofing and consequently many of them started to rust, fairly early on. (My pair of 300TD wagon’s for example, have their share of rust…)

In any case, if you will be trying to bring a car to concourse condition, the costs associated will be fairly prohibitive and the end result will be a car that is worth less than the amounts spent. A number of years ago, a friend spent almost $30,000.00 for the restoration of a 1963 Lincoln Continental and well, that was a classic example of over spending (he spent almost $7,000.00 for the engine to be “balanced-and-blue printed!) I ended up purchasing this car from him about a year later and I paid him significantly less than his restoration costs.

By the way, if you decide to start with a vehicle in less than stellar condition, e-mail me. :)

Mustapha
(Still maintaining an orphanage for old Merc’s and Saabs…)