Protection Against Photo Radar

[jwpotter]

Photo radar is presently being tested in my area, and so I am interested in obtaining protection against this device - so that I will have a certain peace of mind which will allow me to continue enjoyment of my 1990 420SEL (required M-B content!!!).

Any advice regarding license plate covers, anti-flash sprays, etc. (including manufacturer and supplier identification) would be most appreciated, along with MBCA members' experience with such products.

[mark cummins]

The Clear Plexiglass License Plate covers Work great For this..:D
But Here in Kalifornia..you can get cited for the covers

[Robby Ackerman]

Which citation cost the most?

Here in Virginia the ticket for a radar detector is $40 and no points. Speeding tickets start at $70 plus points. A local judge adds $50 for each 1 mph over 80 mph.

[wbain]

Typically, the Gummint wants all the advantage over their charges. If you add covers or sprays, the cops might arrest you for obstruction and throw you in jail.

In Va., it's illegal to cover or obstruct the plates.

Check your PEI laws.

Don't speed, gas is expensive. 420's get rotten gas mileage.

[jrct9454]

Well, not as rotten as a '71 4.5...

Canadian law is the key here, eh? Only you know what's up there...

[heoliver]

Try and get them voted out. Residents of DC are trying.


Horace Oliver

[Johnson Chan]

I dont think missouri has done this yet, (and i hope not), but would something like this work?....

If you have fog lights on your car (the ones that go into the front spoiler under the bumper) aim the lights so they "cross" right at the license plate. Also use the most powerful light bulbs, would this blind the camera at night?

You WILL have to make some modifications to the spoiler or use differnt type of bulbs, or maybe get some put in.

Also what kind of cameras do they use? I know with infared cameras, you can use those laser lights used for presentations and if you shine it into the lense, it will blind the camera.

The best idea though is to be like 007 or like in the movie transporter---ROTATING LICENSE PLATES! :D

[black 400e]

Originally posted by mark cummins
The Clear Plexiglass License Plate covers Work great For this..:D
But Here in Kalifornia..you can get cited for the covers

That is one way and another is to go without a front plate just, don't park on the street. Park in those pay-by-the hour parking structures.

[Brian McGreevy]

I used to spend quite a bit of time in Germany and they have photo radar there. When it goes off you know you were nabbed since you see a very bright flash. It takes a very high quality picture of the front of your car. You can see the plate and driver clearly. In fact the photo is so good that you can almost count nose hairs so I doubt that fog lights will have any effect at all.

Brian :D

[Johnson Chan]

Brian,

How about one of those handheld 3 million candlepower spotlights? Think that can "blind" the camera? :D

[Brian McGreevy]

Maybe but you can't drive down the road with it on.

Brian :D

[Dave Moyssiadis]

I would imagine that any camera shooting through glass would have a polarizing filter on the lens so as to eliminate reflections and bright highlights. I would also guess that they have bright lights figured out too, the sun reflecting off chrome etc. which would be as bright as any spotlight. Short of black spray paint, you would have to wear a disguise for both your face and your license plate.

There is an organization that fights this sort of "revenue enhancement" on the part of our guvmint. They call themselves the National Motorists Association (NMA) and they were responsible for getting the asinine double nickel speed limit overturned. Check out http://www.motorists.org

[wwhopper]

Here in DC they have speed radar mounted in Ford Crown Vic's. They park them at the end of a line of parked cars and often on a down hill run, to get you at your fastest. And red light cameras at many of the major intersections (they are OK - speed cameras are bad) - Really the only folks that make any money on it here in DC is the contractor Lockeed Martin, they get like 70% of the ticket.

I have heard the plate covers work, and they don't work but after seeing one of our section members who is a Federal Marshall had one on his SL600 covering his FOP plates. Then I was doing a job a the DC courthouse - parked down with all the cops - and all the FOP plated cars had them on. I figured I would try it.

I got a super eliminator for my van from Red Line Auto
http://www.redlineauto.com/products.htm

All it is, is a thin piece of plastic - so you need to get a clear plate cover as well to protect it - or someone can just rip it off your plate.

It costs about 50 bucks with shipping, but who knows it might just save a ticket. Or it might earn you one. I have yet put it on either of my Benz's - mostly because I do not like the look of the plastic plate covers.

[jwpotter]

Thanks to Mr. Hopper for your information about the Super Eliminator from Redline Automotive.

If any other members have comments about specific products, these would be most appreciated.

[Lynda J]

One of the TV stations in Dallas did some testing on the lic covers that are advertised to make it so the camera can't read the lic #.
They could read the number on everything they tested. Even at night.

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by jwpotter
Photo radar is presently being tested in my area, and so I am interested in obtaining protection against this device - so that I will have a certain peace of mind which will allow me to continue enjoyment of my 1990 420SEL (required M-B content!!!).

Any advice regarding license plate covers, anti-flash sprays, etc. (including manufacturer and supplier identification) would be most appreciated, along with MBCA members' experience with such products.


The best advice is to slow down, so they have no need to take your picture. As someone pointed out most states ban the covers for the license plates especially the ones that distort your plate numbers head on.

[Scott Singer]

go to Valentine1.com and read, they also have links

[benz gal]

I would suggest that people stop breaking the traffic laws like running red lights and speeding, then they wouldn't need to cover up to avoid the photo radar in the first place. Innocent people are needlessly being killed because others refuse to stop at red lights or drive at a reasonable speed that makes it possible for them to keep their car under control.

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by benz gal
I would suggest that people stop breaking the traffic laws like running red lights and speeding, then they wouldn't need to cover up to avoid the photo radar in the first place. Innocent people are needlessly being killed because others refuse to stop at red lights or drive at a reasonable speed that makes it possible for them to keep their car under control.

Truer words were never written. I agree.

[NewEnglandCliff]

The frustrating thing for skilled drivers is the often pointless removal of your freedom and enjoyment of driving. Many view driving as a pleasure and it should be so long as it doesn't cause any harm to anything or anyone. For example, you could be driving down a vacant 8 lane highway through an open expanse with perfect weather, clear view all around and no exit or entrance ramps. The speed limit may be 50 based on local bureaucrats ideas of what is safe for the weakest drivers. If you're going 65 you'll get a ticket. And it's exactly these kinds of areas, areas where it's perfectly safe, a stretch of road that naturally lures you to accelerate, where police will be sitting waiting to ticket you. It doesn't matter that you've spent years driving the Autobahns of Europe at nearly double that speed (as I have and still routinely got passed), have a new German car designed for such driving (as I have) or are a professional race driver. They will take your money and, eventually your license and your freedom for no pertinent reason, only because of the often impertinent speed limit and because they can and they want to. You lose your freedom because of limits designed for poor, unskilled, or unwise drivers and because police will take advantage of that.

And there are times where you just don't know the speed limit. If you're in an unfamiliar area and turn from one road onto another it may be some time before you see a speed limit sign. You may accelerate to a speed that seems prudent and very comfortable but, nonetheless, illegal and be ticketed. I have a radar detector for this reason. If it goes off I slow down no matter what I think the speed limit is, not because I'm unsafe, but to keep my license and money. If other devices protect us skilled drivers in this manner then I'm all for it. We shouldn't have to lose our freedoms because of laws geared towards the poorest drivers.

[ALUEB]

only as a pleasure, but something that is taken for granted. In most of the world getting a drivers license is a privilege. There are way to many "pleasure drivers' out there, by which I mean people who simple don't know how to drive, the drive but have no driving skill. I would say on any given day on any road in this country there are people driving who don't have a clue. Look at some of the *#*#*#*#boxes people driver, my thinking on this is, if a person owns a car and doesn't take of it, they don't particular care to know how to drive, just point and go and that's what makes it bad for the us folks, who love our cars take car of them and really know how to drive.

[benz gal]

Thanks for your support ALeub. Too many people are driving like maniacs when there are others on the roads at the same time and it's the innocent law abiding people who are needlessly dying because of these bad drivers. As for the claim about the loss of freedom, I'm much more worried about some really serious attacks on our freedoms that are currently taking place at the federal level but holding bad drivers accountable for their reckless behavior that's killing innocent people isn't one of them.

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by benz gal
Thanks for your support ALeub. Too many people are driving like maniacs when there are others on the roads at the same time and it's the innocent law abiding people who are needlessly dying because of these bad drivers. As for the claim about the loss of freedom, I'm much more worried about some really serious attacks on our freedoms that are currently taking place at the federal level but holding bad drivers accountable for their reckless behavior that's killing innocent people isn't one of them.

Your last sentence is so accurate, we are lossing or freedoms, I happend to watch 1984 last nite, the remake, and I said to myself this is were our country is headed, maybe not in our lifetimes but someday. Newspeak is the language of our government already.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Both Al and NewEnglandCliff make good points. I love to drive fast but that is rarely possible on our crowded highways. Once in a while when no one is anywhere in sight and I am alone, I’ll push it a little, but always worrying about the cops takes the edge off.

What really sticks in my craw is the disingenuousness of our speed laws. It is purely for money. It has nothing at all to do with safety. I’m sure there are a few good traffic cops who are concerned about safety, but if the traffic agencies really wanted to slow us down instead of using speed as an excuse to pick up a few extra bucks, they’d flood the roads with MARKED cars, not hide like snakes in the grass.

My feeling is if you and your car are capable there should be no reason to limit speed. On the other hand if you drive faster than your own limit, then they should come down hard on you.

BTW Al, don't look now but 1984 has been here much longer than you realize. You can go nowhere without being on videotape for almost your entire trip, no matter where you go. Every toll plaza takes a picture of your face and your plate. Every mall can tell when you got there, whe you left, what stores you went to and what you bought. You can be tracked along most of the highways you drive. Just look at the morning and evening traffic reports. The only reason you aren't on Action News is because your are home watching it!

[ALUEB]

our interstate highway system was designed for speeds of 75 to 80 mph east of the Mississippi, and 80 to 90 mph west of the river. I have taken two cross country trip back in the 70's and when we got out to Texas, New Mexico and west the speed limit was 55MPH, (this was during the 1st gas crisis), you could drive all day on those highways and not see another car, town etc. Driving them at 100mph seems more logical. I can see where the speed limit would be held down in the east, too much congestion, the CSX Railroad top speed in the east is thru Ohio and Ind, 65 mph for freight and 70 for Amtrak, east of those states it drops as low as 45mph, not because of track condition but because the east is crowded. The UP which runs from La to Chicago has a 100MPH to St Louis. Your point that speed limits are money makers is well taken, safety is not a major issue. Your last paragraph is correct 1984 is here now, except you can still partake in some afternoon delight without someone turning you in, (most of the time) is one is that type, I'm not and not saying anyone on the board is, but you do get my point from the movie?

One more point, I drove the Autobahn once, back in the 60's and was surprised that a lot of it is not very good highway, at least not like some of the highway systems I've seen in this country, my point German and Euro's in general are taught how to drive, really drive that is and respect a car and know their own capability, here it is a free for all out there.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

What I heard about speed limits is that for a given roadway they are set to be very safe for a less than gifted driver under bad conditions. Also they were set decades ago when most cars simply didn't have the handling capabilities that today's cars have. But a good driver with a decent car should have no trouble driving more than double the limit - assuming everyone else is going about that speed.

But congestion is the biggest problem. Only a fool would try to go fast on most of the East coast.

Unfortunately your last paragraph says it all...respect. No one here has any manners. Especially most of the idiots in their Slug Ugly Vehicles who are too stupid to understand that trucks are supposed to keep right. Appearantly they think they will be shot on sight if they're ever caught out of the left lane. Don't get me started...

[ALUEB]

were first built they were built for the needs of the times, but the interstate system, was to out rival the Autobahn and people would be able to cruise all day at 100MPH, of course this was and still is a fool's dream as you pointed out, About a 1/2 hour ago I went to pick up some milk at the local Dairy Mart, an a women with a relatively new Malibut pulled into the handicap spot. I pulled up next to her and said do you a have handicapped parking decal or plates, I do, she looked at me turned her head toward the store wall and there is a big blue sign saying in english and big letter handicapped parking only and had the traditional international sign. She has the balls to tell me she didn't see it, I said you better have your eyes examined. She pulled out and park on the other side of the lot and I pulled into the handicapped spot, as she walked passed my car she is looking at me, I picked up my cane and got out and she turned her head. In the store the women was a complete jerk, she was buying 3 packs of cigs the total was $14.35 and she wanted to know how much each pack was, I said from the back of the line, division is how you figure things like this out, she numbled something, finally the clerk gave her the figure and she start this thing about how she can get them for 20 cents less at this other store, so I opened my mouth again and said go there for Christ sake, there are people in back of you. The icing on the cake however, she payed for them with a credit card. These are the kind of people that are behind the wheels of cars.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

All of those SOBs who park in handicap spaces should have their cars towed to the nearest salvage yard and crushed. You can bet she does that all the time. Those $ # ! + Head$ should be thankful they are able to walk unassisted, I know I am.

When I see one of them getting out of their car I say something like, "You seem to be walking OK so I guess you have a mental handicap."

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by Dave Moyssiadis
All of those SOBs who park in handicap spaces should have their cars towed to the nearest salvage yard and crushed. You can bet she does that all the time. Those $ # ! + Head$ should be thankful they are able to walk unassisted, I know I am.

When I see one of them getting out of their car I say something like, "You seem to be walking OK so I guess you have a mental handicap."

Your last quote is good, very good, going to have to remember this one and use it on one of these jerks.

[benz gal]

The great German autobahn is nothing more than an exact copy of the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut. The Merritt Parkway is the oldest parkway in the entire world. My father watched it get built when he was growing up. I saw recently on a German news broadcast that Germany has begun instituting speed limits on various sections of the autobahn because there've been so many accidents. Innocent people are being needlessly killed in my area because too many of these maniacs are driving at 100mph+, loosing control of their cars and crossing the medians into oncoming traffic. Our highways are too conjested for this type of driving period. BTW, Alueb, I always challenge someone who pulls into a handicapped space that doesn't have the proper sticker or license plate. That's one of my big pet peeves. I can't stand it when some unthinking jerk pulls into such a parking space that they don't need while they prevent somene who genuinely needs it from using it. Also, I've read the book 1984 and the parallels to what's been happening in our country in the last 3 years with the attacks on our freedoms is chilling to say the least. I myself plan to concentrate on grooming my MB to show in the show class at Starfest because thinking about what's going on in the world these days is just too scary. I'm glad these important issues have been raised in this thread but I think we've pretty well covered them in the context of this thread.

[ALUEB]

drive like the Merritt Parkway, which I have traveled many days, I use it instead of 95 as it is "safer" even then 95 which is a zoo. I probably saw the same show you did on the Autobahn, they are putting speed limits around cities and they have camera's along the highway to ticket offenders of German traffic law. One film showed a car turning over several times and all four people walk away, amazing.

[Brian McGreevy]

Speed doesn't kill. Never has.

Speed and following too closely does, speed and poor visibility does, speed and wet roads do, and many other poor driving habits combined with speed causes many deaths. The issue here is not speed never has been and never will be.

The only thing that speed alone creates is money for your local government coffers...an jobs for donut eating cops.

By the way, speed limit areas on the autobahn are not new. The autobahn has NEVER been without a speed limit in areas where there are other inherent dangers. (example: traffic congestion areas, intersections, high population areas, animal crossings) Again it there is a speed limit in these areas because there are other dangers.

Brian :D

[Lyonstexas]

Disparity in speed is a major culprit. Imagine ALL traffic moving at exactly 90mph. Then think about the alternative, going 90mph on a freeway with others going 55mph. A real recipe for disaster.

[Brian McGreevy]

Not a bad point. I wish they would start giving tickets for people driving in the fast lane on a 70 mph highway at 60! Now there is a good law abiding citizen who will cause an accident...and then they wonder why?

But you know what...they never get a ticket. But if you follow them too closely, you will...for agressive driving!

Now that makes alot of sense!

Brian :D

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by Brian McGreevy
Not a bad point. I wish they would start giving tickets for people driving in the fast lane on a 70 mph highway at 60! Now there is a good law abiding citizen who will cause an accident...and then they wonder why?

But you know what...they never get a ticket. But if you follow them too closely, you will...for agressive driving!

Now that makes alot of sense!

Brian :D

have been giving drivers tickets for driving in the left lane of I 91 and I 90. Strange part of it is people in the center of middle lanes are shooting by a 90mph and the dummies in the left lane are driving 45mph, but Mass is known to have some of the worse drivers in the country, personnally I stay in the right or middle lanes usually around 70 to 74 mph if traffic permits and stay out of trouble.

[benz gal]

Speed does kill because most people who speed don't have their cars under conrol. It's the speeders who lose control of their cars and who then crash into someone who isn't speeding and minding their own business. It's these innocent drivers who are being killed by these reckless speeders. It's time these speeders took responsibility for their actions. They're the ones who are killing innocent people and diving up insurance rates for everyone else. It's time for these speeders to grow up and act like responsible adults. The oly situation where I would ever condone speeding was if it was a matter of life and death. There is no other reason to sped like a maniac and endanger everyone else in the process. Too many speeders driver so recklessly because they know they can get away with it. These reckless speeders are killing innocent people on the expressways in my area and I'm fed up with it. These speeders need to be punished severely for their reckless and lawless behavior.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

I'm with Brian here.

It's the slow pokes who are the real hazzard. While slow drivers are almost never involved in an accident, they cause more than anyone realizes. As a small child I used to ride in my aunt’s car, kneeling on the back seat and looking out the rear window. This aunt had an absolute rule that she would never drive faster than 30 MPH no matter what kind of road she was on. She was never in an accident and to this day (she is in her 90’s) has a perfect driving record. But while I was too young to realize what was going on at the time, it was amusing to watch the path of destruction she left in her wake as all manner of trucks and cars desperately tried to avoid the slow moving object I was riding in.

There are a number of counterintuitive arguments as to why "speeding" is no more and often less dangerous than not speeding. But that would just get some people riled up.

Suffice it to say that no one should overdrive their own abilities or the capabilities of their car.

[benz gal]

There's no excuse for the reckless speeding and red light running driving that happens every day all across our country and that needlessly kills thousands of innocent people every year. On Monday of this week in my local area, a 17 year old boy was killed when a drunk driver ran a red light and slammed into the car this boy and his identical twin brother were riding in. The twin brother is currently hospitalized with injuries caused by the accident. It's especially traumatic for the surviving twin when the idential twin has been killed. I saw the mother of these 2 boys interviewed on a local tv station and she was totally devistated. How many more parents are going to have to suffer such a terrible loss because of a reckless leadfoot maniac driver? There's no defense for this type of driving period. Slow drivers do cause accidents but so do the reckless speeders and red light runners as this latest fatal accident in my local area sadly shows. Such recklessness and blatant lawlessness are inexcusable and indefensible.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

I've looked over this entire thread and can't find anyone who has advocated driving recklessly.

As far as I'm concerned, driving either too fast or too slow for conditions are equally irresponsible. That includes the condition of the road, traffic, your car and you. If you don't know enough to slow down in the rain you are an idiot. If you can't drive fast enough to keep up with traffic you need to get off the road. You are a (literally) unavoidable menace to the rest of us. On the other hand, it may be annoying to have some one pass you, but at least they don't get in anyone's way like those who are not competent to drive at speed. And they don't cause everyone on the road to make evasive maneuvers and needless lane changes etc.

If you find someone behind you who wants to go faster and is flashing his lights, just get out of the way, like they do in Germany, problem solved.

If you want to drive slower use the "granny lane" and let the rest of us use the "hammer lane."

[benz gal]

This thread was started and initially replied to by people interested in thwarting the red light running and speed cameras which would allow them to continue to get away with their reckless and dangerous driving. I find that disturbing and indefensible given the many thousands of lives that are being needlessly lost every year because of such reckless driving.

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by Dave Moyssiadis
I've looked over this entire thread and can't find anyone who has advocated driving recklessly.

As far as I'm concerned, driving either too fast or too slow for conditions are equally irresponsible. That includes the condition of the road, traffic, your car and you. If you don't know enough to slow down in the rain you are an idiot. If you can't drive fast enough to keep up with traffic you need to get off the road. You are a (literally) unavoidable menace to the rest of us. On the other hand, it may be annoying to have some one pass you, but at least they don't get in anyone's way like those who are not competent to drive at speed. And they don't cause everyone on the road to make evasive maneuvers and needless lane changes etc.

If you find someone behind you who wants to go faster and is flashing his lights, just get out of the way, like they do in Germany, problem solved.

If you want to drive slower use the "granny lane" and let the rest of us use the "hammer lane."

Dave, I agee with your statement 100% for those who want to use radar detectors or defeating devices, that's their business as far as I am concerned.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Nancy, I disagree. My take on it is that since photo radar and red light cameras are being put in place to increase revenue rather than as a safety measure, people are trying to keep from getting caught in the net. Very often, when a red light camera is set up, the yellow light duration is shortened to provoke profits for the companies that install them. Those companies get 70% of the fine. The government gets free money because they can use fewer police and still generate more tickets. As I said earlier, if they really want to make the highway safer they will put police cars on the road. Did you ever see anyone fly past a marked car?

Having a computer deliver a ticket to you used to be illegal. There is no witness to any mitigating circumstances. You can't confront your accuser, it's your word against a machine and in a cash strapped city, you know who the judge is going to “believe.”

[ALUEB]

most, as it is true, we are loosing more and more freedom as time goes on. On I91 they have the fast lane, they take a picture of your license plate if you go thru to fast or your Fast Lane thing is low. 1984 and beyond has come.

[badali]

Here in Germany the cameras take very clear pictures. I don't see a need to break the speed limit here because you can drive fast in the unrestricted areas. If people in the US would drive correctly there would be less accidents. The left lane is for passing then move to the right. If someone is overtaking you let them pass. There is no need to block traffic in the passing lane. At the same time if there is heavy traffic there is no need to try to go 100mph. In moderate traffic the speed averages 90-110. If there is no traffic you can safely travel 130-150mph. For extented driving I average 100-120mph. Anything above that requires extreme concentration in any car. You would be suprised at the ease of driving when you can travel at your own pace. I feel safer here at 110mph than in the states at 60mph.
Brad

[Scott Singer]

Safe car, good driver, courteous driver - I feel comfortable with them passing me at any speed.

My safety issue is the poor road conditions here in the mid-atlantic states.
Roadway surfaces, merge lanes, poorly written and placed signs ( not to mention too many unnecsesary signs ).

The cities have poorly coordinated traffic lights, late night traffic light intervals are the same as rush hour.

Then there are the unsecured loads that are falling onto the highway.

The entertaining roads out in the counties are now deluged with roaming deer.

Reduce suburban sprawl, encourage sanely sized vehicles, properly sized and positoned roadsigns, allow manual control of traffic lights at bad intersections by law enforsement when appropirate, clean shoulders.

Where I live in Baltimore they are more concerned about the restricted parking lots for Orioles & Ravens players than they are maintaining decent roadways

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Badali,

That sums it up very nicely. Respect, manners and a direct connection from your brain to your right foot, none of which seem to exist in this country, would cut the accident rate by at least half, if not 80%.

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by badali
Here in Germany the cameras take very clear pictures. I don't see a need to break the speed limit here because you can drive fast in the unrestricted areas. If people in the US would drive correctly there would be less accidents. The left lane is for passing then move to the right. If someone is overtaking you let them pass. There is no need to block traffic in the passing lane. At the same time if there is heavy traffic there is no need to try to go 100mph. In moderate traffic the speed averages 90-110. If there is no traffic you can safely travel 130-150mph. For extented driving I average 100-120mph. Anything above that requires extreme concentration in any car. You would be suprised at the ease of driving when you can travel at your own pace. I feel safer here at 110mph than in the states at 60mph.
Brad

I think I am having an orgasm looking at your speedometer!

[William Moore]

I suspect the so-called polarized plexi plate covers don't work. Seems to me what you need is a piece of LCD glass like what is sometimes used to glaze bathroom windows. When a low voltage is applied to the coating in between the two layers of glass it instantly turns opaque. If one had a button on or near the steering wheel one could push momentarily when the need arose, one would be better protected. But I'm just thinking outloud, so to speak. I have not tried this but the thought has crossed my mind before. The best solution obviously is to stay within the speed limit and be cautious at intersections. But sometimes stuff happens, right?

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Most of the speed limits in the country are too low. Just about everyone is 10-15+ MPH over the limit. If you drive the limit on most heavily traveled highways, you will be a hazard to everyone behind you. It's good advice but it doesn't work when you have speed laws used primarily as revenue enhancement. Any cop will admit that the only reason you get a speeding ticket instead of the guy in front of you is that you are the first one he aims his radar/laser gun at and it was just your turn. For the authorities it's shooting fish in a barrel whenever they need a few bucks

Rather than speed being an issue, more importantly IMO it would be even better to follow the 2 second rule instead of tailgating, but it seems that if you keep a reasonable distance between you and the car ahead, someone will get between within a few seconds. And if you drop back to accommodate, some one else will do it again. That will continue until you are driving 30 in a 70 zone.

I challenge anyone on the East Coast to try to follow at a safe distance and still keep up with traffic.

I'd suggest that we all would be better off if there were no speed limits on open roads, (let people drive at the speed they are comfortable) but tailgating should get you arrested. If that were the case there would be way fewer accidents. If you keep your distance you can't hit anyrhing. Does that make sense to anyone?

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by Dave Moyssiadis
Most of the speed limits in the country are too low. Just about everyone is 10-15+ MPH over the limit. If you drive the limit on most heavily traveled highways, you will be a hazard to everyone behind you. It's good advice but it doesn't work when you have speed laws used primarily as revenue enhancement. Any cop will admit that the only reason you get a speeding ticket instead of the guy in front of you is that you are the first one he aims his radar/laser gun at and it was just your turn. For the authorities it's shooting fish in a barrel whenever they need a few bucks

Rather than speed being an issue, more importantly IMO it would be even better to follow the 2 second rule instead of tailgating, but it seems that if you keep a reasonable distance between you and the car ahead, someone will get between within a few seconds. And if you drop back to accommodate, some one else will do it again. That will continue until you are driving 30 in a 70 zone.

I challenge anyone on the East Coast to try to follow at a safe distance and still keep up with traffic.

I'd suggest that we all would be better off if there were no speed limits on open roads, (let people drive at the speed they are comfortable) but tailgating should get you arrested. If that were the case there would be way fewer accidents. If you keep your distance you can't hit anyrhing. Does that make sense to anyone?

Ma earlier today on 1 91, and in the middle lane, there was a women in front of me during perhaps 50 mph, the limit is 65 mph, I passed her in the left lane and pulled back into the middle, next thing I know I look out my rearview mirror, Drivers side and here she comes, gets ahead of me pulls in the middle lane and slows down to about the same speed, so I pass her again, and sure enough here she comes again, this time I pushed the accelerator down and loss her. She was driving one of those old K body Dodges, I tell you Mass has some strange drivers on the road.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Al,

Don't feel bad, I have driven the entire East Coast and to my total perplexity, find that everywhere, if someone is in front of me, they insist on going slower, say 55 in a 60 zone. They seem to do everything possible to keep me from passing, but if I do manage to succeed and drive at 60-65 with them behind me, all of a sudden they want to do 70 !!!!!!!!!!!!

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by Dave Moyssiadis
Al,

Don't feel bad, I have driven the entire East Coast and to my total perplexity, find that everywhere, if someone is in front of me, they insist on going slower, say 55 in a 60 zone. They seem to do everything possible to keep me from passing, but if I do manage to succeed and drive at 60-65 with them behind me, all of a sudden they want to do 70 !!!!!!!!!!!!

It's got to be a Freud thing.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Just a bunch of nut cases. Mayby there should be an insanity test to take with your driving test. From what I've seen, that would probably clear half the cars off the road.

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by Dave Moyssiadis
Just a bunch of nut cases. Mayby there should be an insanity test to take with your driving test. From what I've seen, that would probably clear half the cars off the road.

but I was told once, in Europe you have to take a mental sort of test, to see if you can if your not bi polar, road raged and things like that, might be BS, but it sounds like a plausible idea.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Now that you mention it, I seem to remember hearing something similar.

[DLGarza]

I have also found that slow drivers for some reason don't want to be passed even if you are going faster than they were initially. I'm not sure for other areas, but what I find strange here in CA is that when someone is nice enough to move out of your way to a slower lane, they are actually going faster in that lane then they were in the "fast" lane.

[NewEnglandCliff]

One of the main factors in automobile accidents here in the states is the lack of courtesy and respect for other drivers, and respect for the activity of driving. Many are out for themselves only and have egos so large that they get personally offended by being overtaken, or otherwise seeing another driver get ahead, even when they have no idea who they are. That doesn't matter to them, they just have such thin skin and are easily miffed. They're just not getting the point. More often than not, if you flash your lights on a slow driver in front of you (tooling along slowly in the passing lane), you'll be flipped the bird. Who are you to tell them how to drive, right?!

Turn signals here, especially in New Hampshire and Massachusetts, seem to be a seldom ordered option on cars. Many drivers seem to be just too cool, or unconcerned about how you plan your driving around them, to be concerned with turn signals.

Very much different from driving in most western European countries where drivers are much more professional and seem to have a higher sense of being on the road together to make it all work.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Sounds like my brother-in-law's immature, spoiled brats playing with their toys.

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by NewEnglandCliff
One of the main factors in automobile accidents here in the states is the lack of courtesy and respect for other drivers, and respect for the activity of driving. Many are out for themselves only and have egos so large that they get personally offended by being overtaken, or otherwise seeing another driver get ahead, even when they have no idea who they are. That doesn't matter to them, they just have such thin skin and are easily miffed. They're just not getting the point. More often than not, if you flash your lights on a slow driver in front of you (tooling along slowly in the passing lane), you'll be flipped the bird. Who are you to tell them how to drive, right?!

Turn signals here, especially in New Hampshire and Massachusetts, seem to be a seldom ordered option on cars. Many drivers seem to be just too cool, or unconcerned about how you plan your driving around them, to be concerned with turn signals.

Very much different from driving in most western European countries where drivers are much more professional and seem to have a higher sense of being on the road together to make it all work.


Here in the Bay State, not to many drivers have a clue what a turn signal is and your correct, I live 100 west of Boston, which is the snobish city in the US, and I grew up and worked in NYC, but New Yorker's are humble compared to Bostonians! In my life time I have visited about half of the US and I find the most courteous drivers in the South, and that's a stretch at best.

[benz gal]

I agree that manners and lack of respect for other drivers are missing from too many drivers attitudes these days. Sorry Dave and Al but I still must strongly disagree with both of you. How many more innocent people have to be killed because some lawless maniac goes barling through a red light or is driving so fast that they lose control of their car and slam into and kill an innocent person like what happened last week to an innocent 17 year old boy in my area who was killed in just such an accident? This is about saving inncent people's lives. Sadly, lawlessness is the "in" behavior these days. I'm personally far more worried about the way the U.S. constitution and international law have been shreaded in the last 3 and 1/2 years. BTW, Al, I guess you've never driven in Miami. I've lived and driven in Miami and they're crazy and lawless there too.

[ALUEB]

are two different subjects, It is possible, and quite the norm to be a bad driver and not a lawless person. I agree too many innocents suffer because of bad drivers, but that doesn't necessarily make them lawless, unless they are drunk, running from a crime scene etc. No lawlessness is not that issue here, you are talking about a subject that in law needs intent to be considered lawless and I don't think bad drivers go out and intend to kill people. Over the decades I've lost some friends to bad drivers, I also lost a very good friend a few years back a drunk driver who hit him head on both cars started on fire and my friend and the drunk both loss their lives. A good friend of mine lost his 19 year old daugther in an accident, rainy, foggy nite, the other driver crossed the yellow line and hit them head on. He got 18 months in jail, and probation and loss of license for 5 years. He was convicted of involuntary motor vehicle manslaughter, where these events lawlees? Perhaps the first with the drunk, but he or my friend didn't live, and the second, the driver was not drunk or wasn't drinking he was on his way home from work, it was a bad nite weahter wise, he had no intent to harm anyone, but got caught up in a situation were life was lost and his, the drivers, life is ruined, he was 23 at the time. If I lost a child to such a tragedy I would probably want to kill the guy myself, but what happens, happens.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Where in this entire thread does anyone even hint at the suggestion that they should be allowed to deliberately run red lights and drive recklessly and carelessly in disregard of human life? I don’t think anyone has said that. Indeed, the entire point of the last couple of dozen replies has been about courtesy, manners and competence. It is extremely difficult to cause an accident or kill anyone if those three are observed, no matter what else you do.

Brad will have to correct me if I am mistaken, but I heard that even though people often drive the autobahn at speeds into triple digits, their accident rate is lower than that of the US. The main difference is that they are mature and courteous and better drivers over all. It doesn’t have anything to do with speed, if it did, the German Autobahn would be a bloodbath. Then compare that with the Long Island Expressway (aka LI Bloodway) where speeds are rarely more than 80 but usually about 15 bumper to bumper. Or the Schuylkill expressway (aka Surekill) in Phila.

Al, I was born and raise in NYC too. But I need to correct you about southern drivers. They are more polite than northerners, but that is changing as more and more northerners move here. The joke here is that if you see a southerner using their turn signal, the car probably left the factory that way.

[ALUEB]

Dave:

I haven't been down south in quite a while, I guess things change everywhere, perhaps it is our civilization in general that is changing for the worse.

I do have to correct my own comment, I have been to Florida a couple of times, may years ago, and the drivers down are bad, very bad as I remember. A lot like the Jersey Shore drivers when they started building retirement villages back in the 60's, do you get my drift?

[Brian McGreevy]

Oh here we go again!!!! How is it that these columns seem turn into political topics!

3 1/2 years, shreading our constitution? Oh, boy are you???? A democrat...maybe????

Go get a life...if you have a real Mercedes based topic to discuss then do it, thats what the site is for...its not for political wackos!

Brian

[benz gal]

Again, the very beginning of this thread specifically instructed people on how to cover their license plates so that a red light or speed detection camera couldm't photograph their license plate so they won't get caught when they speed or run a red light. This to me is a deliberate attempt to avoid following existing traffic laws against such behavior. That's lawlessness. Furthermore, I never started this thread and I agree that it's way off topic. I also didn't try to defend this lawless and dangerous behavior as an attack on our freedoms. I care very deeply about the democratic principles that our country was founded on and about all of the people who fought and died for them. Protecting the fundemental democratic principles that our country was founded on isn't a political issue, it's basic human rights that everyone should care about and be concerned about. Sadly, it's a fact that these important priciples have been under serious attack these last 3 and 1/2 years. I can't change that fact and I'm deeply concerned about it. More people need to be concerned and not take these important principles so for granted. Under the first amendment, I have every right to respond to the posts to this thread and to speak out against the use of the important democratic principles our country was founded on to defend the diliberate and lawless breaking of necessary traffic laws which save innocent lives. I think it's long past time to end this thread which again is way off topic and get back to what this forum is supposed to be about which is our great Mercedes-Benz cars.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

If you want to talk about legal rights and principles, what about the one that says you have the right to confront your accuser?

Sometimes, you save a life by running a light. How is that possible? I was about 10 at the time and my Dad stopped for a light. A few seconds later he floored it and made a hard right turn, just in time for a tractor trailer to go barreling through the intersection. If he didn’t disobey that light there would have been nothing left of the car and a whole family would have been wiped out. No airbags and no seatbelts then, not that they would have helped. 30 yrs later a similar thing happened to me. All a camera would have shown was my Dad, and later me, running a light. Is it fair to get a ticket for saving lives? That is what the right of facing your accuser is all about. That is why you need a cop to give you a ticket, so the accuser has to answer to a cross examination. You can’t cross a camera.

Now please go back to your simple black and white world and let the rest of us deal with real life.

[ALUEB]

Boston for a sales meeting, I was in the right lane of a two lane stretch of interstate 90, I started to catch up with the cars in front of me very quickly, finally had to slow down, to around 55MPH the legal limit is 65MPH, then I slowed down even more to around 50 MPH, there was a lot of traffic that morning, I saw my chance to pass and I did, I downshifted to 4th gear ( I had and Audi A4 Quattro at the time) and started my passing, sure a *#*#*#*# in the center island there is a Mass State Trooper with his Radar pointed at me, by the time I got around two cars, as there was no room to slip between them I was doing 80 mph, I of course took my foot off the pedal and upshifted to 5th, I look in the rearview and here comes the trooper, so I slowed down pulled over and he approached my car, hand on gun of course, and asked me did I know how fast I was going, I said yes sir but I was passing two very slow drivers, he asked for my license and registration, went back to his car, wrote me up a ticket for 74mph and told me I believe your story but you were exceeding the speed limit by 15mph, but I wrote you up a 74 mph the fine is then only $50. I thanked him and went on my way. What he didn't mention was it cost me at the next insurance renewel $400 for 4 years, on a sliding downward scale, this was the first ticket I have gotten in 30 plus years and I haven't gotten stop once since them except for 2 years ago at a roadblock looking for drunks, I don't drink so they waved me on, they did however flash the flashlights into my eyes, I guess if you look "eye funny" they pull you out of line and do the sobber test as I call it. Anyway I wasn't doing anything lawless when I passed this slow driver, I might have taken a bit of a chance as the highway was busy, but I caught and paid dearly. Interesting side note if I was stopped in the county I live in I could have had the point erased from my record, the person at the courthouse that handles tickets will let good friends like me and in a "iffy" situation and the fine is below $100 and not a felony contribute the money to a charity of my choice, he holds the ticket open until you send him the receipt from the charity. He doesn't allow this to everyone, just people he knows and under the above conditions.

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Al,

That flashlight they stuck in your face may well have had a "sniffer" in it to detect alcohol. It wasn't as innocuous as you think.

Now imagine for a second that you had just cleaned your rview mirror or other object in the cabin with an alcohol solvent. The flashlight would have alerted the cop to a possible drinker. I guarantee you would have spent a lot more time on the side of the road than you planned on while they tried everything they could to find evidence of drinking.

Something similar happened to me and I had to go to court because the cops gave me a ticket anyway. Fortunately they didn't have a case and didn't even show for the trial. Even tho I won by default, I still had a lot of inconvenience; while 2 cops did everything they could to find evidence of my supposed "drunkenness," the trouble of building a defense against the charges, and finally having to go to court.

I have gotten about a dozen tickets in 30 yrs., but at least I have been able to force the cop into a courtroom and the judge has almost always agreed with me that the cop was wrong. You don't have a prayer defending against a machine. And that's what's wrong with cameras and why we need to avoid the situation. Don't forget it was their idea not ours. They opened the box of leeches.

[Roger St.Pierre]

You are absolutely right Dave. Example is a few years ago when I had recently moved to Prescott Valley, AZ. Not familiar with the streets in the area yet, I made a right turn without stopping at a 3 way intersection, and within seconds was pulled over by the local cops, and ticketed with failure to stop at a stop sign.

I pride myself on my driving abilities and went back later to see why they ticketed me for not stopping. Sure enough, there was a stop sign, but it was so faded (no longer red, but a rusty yellow with the lettering all but washed-out) that it did not stick out like a norman red stop sign. So, I took pictures of the sign from various distances, from several hundred feet, to right up close and presented them to the judge at my court date. (I refused to pay the fine at the time). When the judge saw the pictures and heard my story, there wasn't a minute before he threw out the charge and made a note for the city to replace the sign before someone else ran it and caused an accident.

Bottom line, because I was able to face my accuser in a court of law, not only was I able to throw out a false charge, but a new sign was erected shortly thereafter, hopefully preventing an accident. It sure helps when you can tell your own version. Life is not black and white, but often times faded shades that make it interesting.

Roger

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Roger,

That is what the courts are for. You usually win if you are right and you treat the system with respect.

I can site several instances of that very thing. One was a speed sign twisted sideways so all you saw was edge on - it looked like a sign post w/out the sign. Another time there were 2 No Left Turn signs for the same intersection. Seemingly no excuse. But I went home and got my camera to prove to the judge that one of the signs was hidden by tree branches and the other was against a very busy background that made the sign all but invisible. The same cop sits at those signs because he knows you can't see them. When he shows them to you wonder how you could have missed them and most people just pay.

But immediately re-driving the road revealed exactly what was wrong. You can't do that when you get a ticket in the mail 3 weeks later, conditions may have changed. In these cases they straightened the speed sign and cut the branches.

Sweet satisfaction is when the cop was put in his place by the judge. After another dismissal, I heard the judge balling out the cop as I walked out of the courtroom. None of which could have happened if I could not take my accuser to court. If cameras gave me all those tickets, I would probably have had my license revoked years ago with dozens of points on my record and be considered a reckless driver.

Then there are the stuck lights, no way to prove it with a camera, you recklessly ran a red light period.

Instead, I have enjoyed a point-free good driver rating with every insurance company I’ve used.

[ALUEB]

Dave:

Yoour probably correct, with the flashlight, they have very suttle ways of detaining people, As I said a while back Big Brother is watching our every move.

[Brian McGreevy]

Speeding tickets are nothing more than a tax by the government to pay for their over spending. Unfortunately this is a tax that affects us all, rich or poor, good driver or bad.

The reason the government wants cameras is to lower their cost to enforce this tax. Simple fact is ... cameras are cheaper than donut eaters.

Its the same now as it was 3 1/2 years ago and it will be the same no matter who is elected. As far as your First Amendment rights...get a life! You lose your credibility when you post extreme left wing comments of that type.

Brian

[benz gal]

Brian, are you always so nasty to anyone who dares to disagree with you? Sorry but you're not going to intimidate me with your nastiness. For the record, every previous generation of Americans has fought and died for the fundemental and non political democratic princiles our country was founded on that you so flippantly now call, "left wing comments". Your disdain for these fundemental and non political human rights is shameful. You're the one who needs to get a life and re-read your history books. As for everyone else who tried to justify what continues to be nothing more than blatant lawlessness, please tell your stories to the parents of a 17 year old boy in my area who was tragically killed last week because a drunk driver ran a red lght and slamed into the car that he was riding in. No parents should ever have to suffer the way the parents of this boy will suffer for the rest of their lives. Your attempts to justify your lawlessness by attempting to hide behind the fundemental democratic principles that our country was founded on is still a false argument. There are currently serious attacks being waged against the democratic principles our country was founded on that people need to be concerned about and and holding those who are running red lights and sppeding accountable for their dangerous behavior that's killing innocent pople doesn't begin to rise to that level. I don't understand why you have such a problem with stopping for a red light or driving at the spped limit. People who drive in a lawful manner don't get tickets. As I've said previously, the only justifaction for not doing so would be a matter of life and death. Again I ask how many more innocent people like the 17 year old boy in my area have to be killed because of such lawless driving? How do you recommend that drivers who deliberaely run a red light or speed and kill an innocent person because of their dangerous behavior be held accountable? I further think the advocation of such law breaking makes MBCA look bad. Here MBCA is making a big effort to provide good, responsible and law abiding defensive drving training to our club membership and here you are advocating running red lights and speeding. I find this offensive and I have every right to say so. Finally, I've also said before, it's time to end this way off topic thread and get back to what this forum was set up for which is our great Mercedes-Benz cars.

[ALUEB]

innocently enough but it getting out of hand, lets talk about something more constructive, as this is a Tech Help forum.

CAN I REPLACE MY HELLA HORNS DIRECTLY TO THE STOCK WIRING HARNESS OR DO I HAVE TO USE THE RELAY PROVIDES?? HERE I'VE STARTED A NEW SUBJECT!

[Dave Moyssiadis]

Al,

It's probably better to use the relay. It would depend on how much current the Hella horns draw. If your regular horns are rated the same as the Hellas and you disable them it would probably be OK. But the relays are usually used because a lot of current has to be switched. The horn button causes the relay to trip which allows the horns to draw directly from the battery instead of going through the steering wheel. Otherwise you may pop a fuse when you toot your own horn.:D

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by Dave Moyssiadis
Al,

It's probably better to use the relay. It would depend on how much current the Hella horns draw. If your regular horns are rated the same as the Hellas and you disable them it would probably be OK. But the relays are usually used because a lot of current has to be switched. The horn button causes the relay to trip which allows the horns to draw directly from the battery instead of going through the steering wheel. Otherwise you may pop a fuse when you toot your own horn.:D

I had almost forgotten, someone sent me a wiring diagram for the C280 W202 and there is a relay already installed for the stock horns, which ironically enough are also Hella horns. Thanks for the info.

[benz gal]

Originally posted by ALUEB
innocently enough but it getting out of hand, lets talk about something more constructive, as this is a Tech Help forum.

CAN I REPLACE MY HELLA HORNS DIRECTLY TO THE STOCK WIRING HARNESS OR DO I HAVE TO USE THE RELAY PROVIDES?? HERE I'VE STARTED A NEW SUBJECT! Well said ALUEB! Thanks for bringing this thread back to the real purpose of this forum which is our MB's. I'm not sure what to advise you on your Hella Horns for your C class. I would suggest being very carefull getting involved with your electrical system. You could be opening up a huge can of worms and cause yourself a whole lot of trouble. BTW, for the 2nd day in a row, while driving home from work, I saw what I suspect to be a next generation A class being tested on the expressway.It was very heavily clad but it looked to be about the size of an A class and the tiny portion of the tailights, headlights and grill that I was able to see further leads me to suspect that what I saw was an A class. Autoweek has recently been reporting that A classes have been spotted testing around the country. This car did have a Michigan license plate on it wgich makes me even further suspect that I just might be right. I'll report further if I see anything else.

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by benz gal
Well said ALUEB! Thanks for bringing this thread back to the real purpose of this forum which is our MB's. I'm not sure what to advise you on your Hella Horns for your C class. I would suggest being very carefull getting involved with your electrical system. You could be opening up a huge can of worms and cause yourself a whole lot of trouble. BTW, for the 2nd day in a row, while driving home from work, I saw what I suspect to be a next generation A class being tested on the expressway.It was very heavily clad but it looked to be about the size of an A class and the tiny portion of the tailights, headlights and grill that I was able to see further leads me to suspect that what I saw was an A class. Autoweek has recently been reporting that A classes have been spotted testing around the country. This car did have a Michigan license plate on it wgich makes me even further suspect that I just might be right. I'll report further if I see anything else.

I've done some electrical work already with the Benz, and over the years I have done quite a lot with other cars. The mods I do are very carefully chosen so they do not interfere with other delicate system like ESP, ABS and all that other computer stuff. Thanks for the advice, it shows you are a caring person. Your probably correct about the A Class, I would like to see one in the flesh, to see how small it really is. I should next to a Mimi Cooper a while back and the top of the roof, was just above my stomach, it is a small car. I had a ride in a Stephen Cooper version, it is also very, very fast.

[benz gal]

ALUEB, I'm glad you're taking the careful approach on the C class electrical work. As for the A class, I agree with you. I think I'm right about what I saw as well. I didn't see it today. We're supposed to be getting the long wheelbase version which is a good deal bigger than the Mini. I would say that it's also bigger than a P.T. Cruiser as well.

[ALUEB]

Originally posted by benz gal
ALUEB, I'm glad you're taking the careful approach on the C class electrical work. As for the A class, I agree with you. I think I'm right about what I saw as well. I didn't see it today. We're supposed to be getting the long wheelbase version which is a good deal bigger than the Mini. I would say that it's also bigger than a P.T. Cruiser as well.

As the PT Cruiser is nicely sized for a "compact"

[Brian McGreevy]

Ok, folks...excuse my ignorance but isn't the topic "Protection Against Photo Radar". Could I suggest that you start a new topic to talk about whatever else you wish to discuss?

Brian :D

[tim]

Benz gal. I notice the so-called loss of freedoms of the last few years bother you. Are you a recent resident of America, or did you miss the encroachments of the last decade? I agree with you that the Consitution is almost ignored these days, but I also know that the dismantling of constitutional freedoms has been going on for quite some time, and is unaffected by which party controls the White House. I think if we all can wake up to this fact, then something might be possible as far as retaining those freedoms. As long as it's perceived as a partisan issue, it's divide and conquer for the ones who are stealing our freedoms.

-tim-

[benz gal]

Tim, it's pretty cear from your post that you didn't read the previous posts to this thread because if you had, you would be aware that this debate was ended because it had nothing to do with MBCA or our cars. Since you wrote the post that you did, I feel obligated to respond and point out that it must be you who is the recent resident because it's a fact and not a partisan issue that the assault on our democratic form of government in the last 3 and 1/2 years has been unprecedented. We're pretty much back to where we were at the time of the declaration of ndependence in 1776. The issues listed in that document are the very same issues that are at issue today. It's almost chilling to read the declaration of independence after the events of the last 3 and 1/2 years. Sometimes the truth hurts and this is one of those times. However, the MBCA forum is not the forum for this larger debate. I would urge you to follow the lead of the rest of the posters to this thread and get back to the issues of the MBCA and our beloved MB's. I would be more than glad to explain the broader non-MB issues raised in this particular thread in private if you like. Beyond that, I consider this non MB related thread satisfactorally debated. I would urge you to do likewise.

[tim]

You are right, I only got through about three pages of the thread. Sorry if anyone is irritated by my reply to an off topic. It just seemd to be coming up over and over, and also seemed a little over the top.

-tim-

[bill streep]

This thread is DONE! Sorry folks, it is 1) no longer sticking to the subject and 2) it doesn't belong in the TECHNICAL FORUM.